This page sponsored by Extreme Restraints    [other banners]

	SD! : Web boards : Submission : "is it wrong?" 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 is it wrong? (96) This topic is now full - if you want to reply, please make a new post on the board itself. 2 Mar 08, 10:28 PM Yarakot 3 yrs Much as I hate going against the crowd, I have to say that I disagree that what is described is automatically abusive or undesirable behavior. The critical issue when we look at M/s relationships is not how closely they adhere to vanilla norms, but whether the actions taken by the dominant enhance enslavement or injure it and whether the slave is improving as a person in that relationship or not. There is nothing prima facie wrong with a dominant punishing when angry. My owner does so. The critical issues to me are: I know at these times that he is in control of his emotions (they don't control him) even when he is hurting me; I know that I deserve the punishment; and I know that there is a way for me to avoid being punished in the future (i.e. I know the rules and I know that it is possible for me to adhere to them). I have been backed into corners, pushed into walls, and a variety of other things have been done to get my attention. My owner has been in control of himself throughout all of them and they've been done with intent. I do not feel abused. Sometimes I am frightened at the moment that things are happening, though I never worry that he has lost control because he doesn't. I think lili once differentiated between fearing consequences and fearing the dominant. I don't fear my owner. vixen_girl wrote: How can i respect Him if He says " I'm too lazy to train you" making me beg Him to write a list of rules for me , making Him annoyed and writing it out. i think here is a what the fuck that factor that goes into all of this. Not knowing what to expect or how to follow the rules he wants is a separate issue from punishing when angry in my mind. That is an abdication of his responsibility to set out clear guidelines for you to follow. Clarity is one of the things slaves get out of these relationships. On the pragmatic level, if you don't know how to please him and you don't know what you will end up doing that will displease him, the entire relationship becomes unstable. Instability is deadly to enslavement. So, this I see as something to be concerned about. Carolyn "Each moment opens like a flower. The age of miracles comes every hour on the hour. Turn any corner, there's something new and nothing is too wonderful to be true." -- Launer, Shapiro, & Henning Edited 2 Mar 08, 10:30 PM by Yarakot 2 Mar 08, 10:29 PM shyfox 12 mths little_linnet wrote: It's disturbing to me that someone who supposedly owns another human being would lose his temper and blame her for "making him angry". Do you feel like he has control over himself? Do you feel like he takes responsibility for his behavior? Krista Where did she say that? 2 Mar 08, 10:51 PM godless US(TX), 21 mths Y! shyfox wrote: godless wrote: "Controlled anger play" and the situation the OP is discussing are not the same thing. Similarly, rape and "rape play" are not the same thing. The difference being that the situation in "play" is usually conjured up - ie the master isn't *really* angry, he pretends like he is. It may even seem and feel like he is. The emotions felt by the two (or more) involved may feel really real. But at the end of the day, the premise was made-up. That isn't "the master acting out of anger* - which, I agree, shouldn't happen (and for that matter should be a standard everyone holds themselves too - not just *good Masters*). That is not what I meant by controlled anger play, that is "fake anger play". Perhaps play is the wrong word. If I am placing myself under the complete authority of someone else and I happen to make them angry I can't cry fowl if they act on that anger. As long as the reaction isn't insane, like chopping off my hand or something, then I would have a hard time calling it abusive. It's kind of crazy to say it's ok for a master to beat the shit out of a slave as long as it's in a "scene" but not to shove her against the wall when she pisses him off. I also think there is too little information in the original post to start crying abuse. Fair enough - I misunderstood your use of the word play. My comment was directed at differentiating "scene anger" and "real" anger, and probably has little use since the clarification. I agree on the too little information part too - note that I didn't comment on the OP's situation, and don't think I can at this point. However, I did appreciate Carolyn's differentiation with "fear of consequences" and "fear of owner" and corresponding "who is in control, the anger or the owner?" comments. For further clarification, I was also inteding that, though I didn't say it nearly as eloqunetly. What I meant by "no one should act out of anger" was "no one should allow their anger to dictate their actions." However, the converse is not true - a *healthy* (and I'm not even going to begin to define that) way of funneling ones anger through action is perfectly acceptable, and probably preferred to "bottling up," so to speak. "You don't love a girl because she's beautiful. You love a girl because she sings a song that only you can understand" - L.J Smith "Dark World" 2 Mar 08, 10:55 PM jakesemma US(WA), 15 mths Y! Master_David1965 wrote: Emma, One of the things from the OP that really jumped out at Me is this: "Master says that if i dont respect Him first He will not respect me." To Me, that sounds like a bully who isn't in control of himself. IMO, a Master worth his salt would never say something like that. It also puts the slave in control, because he's saying "if you don't...then I won't...." He's basing his actions upon those of the slave, which in this case, I believe is wrong. you are correct when you say a Master can do as He wishes, but here's where you and I probably start to think differently. I think that when a Master starts to intentionally berate his slave or make her feel useless or worthless because he wants to, then he's no Master at all. It's just My perception that you disagree with that point. If it's incorrect, please tell Me. While I have done things with My former slaves that could be considered questionable by vanillas, I did them with the intent of putting the slaves in their places. Were some of those things humilating to them? Sure. Were they dangerous to their emotional health? No. I did it as a method of training to reinforce their position, but after I always reinforced their worth. (I see position and worth as two different things in this example.) The OP's master (intentional use of lower case) doesn't seem to be the type of person who can be talked with on a rational or reasonable level. While your second point is very valid, in the OP's case I don't feel that method will work. As to point 3, I fully concur. jakesemma wrote: One thing I am going to say here, and it may not be the general opinion... but if a slave is a slave, a Master can do what he wishes. I see it as having a couple options. 1. you think and feel you are slave and you are his slave no matter what. And you accept what he does. You need to communicate with him. tell him what your feeling, how your thinking, make sure your both on the same page. 2. you talk to him, try to communicate, make educated decisions (which frankly I think goes along with #1.) if you do not feel enslaved, if you feel abused, make sure the situation is correct as you percieve it. no chemical disorders such as bi polar.. nothing to skew your view, are you SURE he's actually angry? -- if the answer to this is yes, then you need to communicate with him, talk to him. 3. if nothing can be done to resolve the issues/fears/questions you have... leave. but make sure you are making an educated logical decision and aren't being rash. M/s is not the same as a vanilla relationship. just my 2cents/ opinion. If a slave is being disrespectful to her owner, how do we know that she isn't instigating the situation? (no offense to the op) We only hear her side of the story, (not to say that the op isn't being 100% accurate.) but what if she's percieving everything in a idfferent manner then how it actually is? the only reason Im saying this is because I used to think everything my Master did was violent and dangerous/evil because of being angry.. because of my own FEARS... not because thats how it actually was... the longer we've been in M/s, the more we've communicated, talked and he's worked with the, the better i've gotten about reading his body language, seeing his actual intent and not the fear that I percieved as "acting out in anger"... It may not be her situation at all, but if it IS, this is somethign she needs to be addressing, with her Master and not us. I am sure in a fear/panic state, I could be given/told the same advice "leave, he's abusing you" when in reality, he IS in total control of himself and I am just having a panic attack and seeing percieved anger/threats where they do not exist. Before you just leave and label him an abuser, make 100% sure, that IS the situation... she did NOT give us enough information one way or another, and it could still be percieved threats and anger that aren't real. ---- as a side note, if I was being disrespectful to my owner, why would he treat me with respect? (He usually would, to lead by example, but he has told me before im going to act like a spoiled brat or a child, he would treat me how I am acting.) -- it is possible that maybe that is what her owner meant? He's not here to defend himself. She needs to be speaking with him. not us. regards, slave emma 2 Mar 08, 10:58 PM jakesemma US(WA), 15 mths Y! Yarakot wrote: Much as I hate going against the crowd, I have to say that I disagree that what is described is automatically abusive or undesirable behavior. The critical issue when we look at M/s relationships is not how closely they adhere to vanilla norms, but whether the actions taken by the dominant enhance enslavement or injure it and whether the slave is improving as a person in that relationship or not. There is nothing prima facie wrong with a dominant punishing when angry. My owner does so. The critical issues to me are: I know at these times that he is in control of his emotions (they don't control him) even when he is hurting me; I know that I deserve the punishment; and I know that there is a way for me to avoid being punished in the future (i.e. I know the rules and I know that it is possible for me to adhere to them). I have been backed into corners, pushed into walls, and a variety of other things have been done to get my attention. My owner has been in control of himself throughout all of them and they've been done with intent. I do not feel abused. Sometimes I am frightened at the moment that things are happening, though I never worry that he has lost control because he doesn't. I think lili once differentiated between fearing consequences and fearing the dominant. I don't fear my owner. vixen_girl wrote: How can i respect Him if He says " I'm too lazy to train you" making me beg Him to write a list of rules for me , making Him annoyed and writing it out. i think here is a what the fuck that factor that goes into all of this. Not knowing what to expect or how to follow the rules he wants is a separate issue from punishing when angry in my mind. That is an abdication of his responsibility to set out clear guidelines for you to follow. Clarity is one of the things slaves get out of these relationships. On the pragmatic level, if you don't know how to please him and you don't know what you will end up doing that will displease him, the entire relationship becomes unstable. Instability is deadly to enslavement. So, this I see as something to be concerned about. Carolyn Carolyn, this is exactly how it has been in my relationship as well. I don't think you are the only one who felt this way, you are just better at articulating it than I was. regards, slave emma 2 Mar 08, 11:01 PM shyfox 12 mths godless wrote: Fair enough - I misunderstood your use of the word play. My comment was directed at differentiating "scene anger" and "real" anger, and probably has little use since the clarification. I agree on the too little information part too - note that I didn't comment on the OP's situation, and don't think I can at this point. However, I did appreciate Carolyn's differentiation with "fear of consequences" and "fear of owner" and corresponding "who is in control, the anger or the owner?" comments. For further clarification, I was also inteding that, though I didn't say it nearly as eloqunetly. What I meant by "no one should act out of anger" was "no one should allow their anger to dictate their actions." However, the converse is not true - a *healthy* (and I'm not even going to begin to define that) way of funneling ones anger through action is perfectly acceptable, and probably preferred to "bottling up," so to speak. LOL That is basically the point I was making as well. Maybe Carolyn should give eloquence lessons at the tea party. 2 Mar 08, 11:35 PM little_linnet US, 3 yrs shyfox wrote: little_linnet wrote: It's disturbing to me that someone who supposedly owns another human being would lose his temper and blame her for "making him angry". Do you feel like he has control over himself? Do you feel like he takes responsibility for his behavior? Krista Where did she say that? "when i cause Him to get angry". I too differentiate between acting in anger and being out of control and I too think that difference is a vital one, which is why I asked the questions I did. Krista Jesus fuck, I get pulled out from under the tits of the Exposicion Young Gun and Neo-Nazi Club by someone it turns out the seguridados would happily slag the entire neighborhood to make sure they erase! 2 Mar 08, 11:53 PM allalone47 US(OH), 3 yrs vixen_girl wrote: is it wrong? there are times when Master gets very angry with me and will become physical. He will cover my mouth if i am speaking and He feels that i need to "shut up" and proceed to back my into a corner literally and get in my face. He also tends to punch me in my arm with full force when i cause Him to get angry. i find this scary. Master tells me that if i cant handle a 24/7 relationship i shouldn't have asked for it. but that makes me think, would You punch in You car window if it ran out of gas, no , so why would a Master act like this towards His slave? Master says that if i dont respect Him first He will not respect me...isnt it suppose to be the other way around. How can i respect Him if He says " I'm too lazy to train you" making me beg Him to write a list of rules for me , making Him annoyed and writing it out. i think here is a what the fuck that factor that goes into all of this. i dont want to Master myself gerrr. so what Y/your opinions on all of this this ? thank you for Y/your responses. vixen ( the slave name that is never said) vixen A slave is a slave but a slave is not a punching bag. If a Master is not in control of himself his is not mastering his slave but abusing her. No if his car runs out of gas he shood not punch out the window. And if he is haveing a bad day he shood not take it out on his slave. A Master takes care of his property and does not abuse it or her. Your owner needs to learn to Master himself. He has a temper, and needs to master that first. I know I have a bad one as well. I have mastered my temper, and he needs to master his before he can Master you. Disaplin, and punishment out of love and respect is right. ponishmet out of anger is abuse. Edited 17 May 08, 10:30 PM by allalone47 3 Mar 08, 6:01 AM Master_David1965 US(CA), 24 mths jakesemma wrote: Master_David1965 wrote: Emma, One of the things from the OP that really jumped out at Me is this: "Master says that if i dont respect Him first He will not respect me." To Me, that sounds like a bully who isn't in control of himself. IMO, a Master worth his salt would never say something like that. It also puts the slave in control, because he's saying "if you don't...then I won't...." He's basing his actions upon those of the slave, which in this case, I believe is wrong. you are correct when you say a Master can do as He wishes, but here's where you and I probably start to think differently. I think that when a Master starts to intentionally berate his slave or make her feel useless or worthless because he wants to, then he's no Master at all. It's just My perception that you disagree with that point. If it's incorrect, please tell Me. While I have done things with My former slaves that could be considered questionable by vanillas, I did them with the intent of putting the slaves in their places. Were some of those things humilating to them? Sure. Were they dangerous to their emotional health? No. I did it as a method of training to reinforce their position, but after I always reinforced their worth. (I see position and worth as two different things in this example.) The OP's master (intentional use of lower case) doesn't seem to be the type of person who can be talked with on a rational or reasonable level. While your second point is very valid, in the OP's case I don't feel that method will work. As to point 3, I fully concur. jakesemma wrote: One thing I am going to say here, and it may not be the general opinion... but if a slave is a slave, a Master can do what he wishes. I see it as having a couple options. 1. you think and feel you are slave and you are his slave no matter what. And you accept what he does. You need to communicate with him. tell him what your feeling, how your thinking, make sure your both on the same page. 2. you talk to him, try to communicate, make educated decisions (which frankly I think goes along with #1.) if you do not feel enslaved, if you feel abused, make sure the situation is correct as you percieve it. no chemical disorders such as bi polar.. nothing to skew your view, are you SURE he's actually angry? -- if the answer to this is yes, then you need to communicate with him, talk to him. 3. if nothing can be done to resolve the issues/fears/questions you have... leave. but make sure you are making an educated logical decision and aren't being rash. M/s is not the same as a vanilla relationship. just my 2cents/ opinion. If a slave is being disrespectful to her owner, how do we know that she isn't instigating the situation? (no offense to the op) We only hear her side of the story, (not to say that the op isn't being 100% accurate.) but what if she's percieving everything in a idfferent manner then how it actually is? the only reason Im saying this is because I used to think everything my Master did was violent and dangerous/evil because of being angry.. because of my own FEARS... not because thats how it actually was... the longer we've been in M/s, the more we've communicated, talked and he's worked with the, the better i've gotten about reading his body language, seeing his actual intent and not the fear that I percieved as "acting out in anger"... It may not be her situation at all, but if it IS, this is somethign she needs to be addressing, with her Master and not us. I am sure in a fear/panic state, I could be given/told the same advice "leave, he's abusing you" when in reality, he IS in total control of himself and I am just having a panic attack and seeing percieved anger/threats where they do not exist. Before you just leave and label him an abuser, make 100% sure, that IS the situation... she did NOT give us enough information one way or another, and it could still be percieved threats and anger that aren't real. ---- as a side note, if I was being disrespectful to my owner, why would he treat me with respect? (He usually would, to lead by example, but he has told me before im going to act like a spoiled brat or a child, he would treat me how I am acting.) -- it is possible that maybe that is what her owner meant? He's not here to defend himself. She needs to be speaking with him. not us. regards, slave emma Right, W/we are only hearing the OP's side of the story. you make a lot of good, valid points, Emma. Thank you for helping Me see this from another angle. Don't tell Me what I can't do. Instead, show Me what is available to Me and I will embrace all that I can with all that I have. 3 Mar 08, 8:57 AM 357-137-289 US, 2 yrs Y! jakesemma wrote: One thing I am going to say here, and it may not be the general opinion... but if a slave is a slave, a Master can do what he wishes. I see it as having a couple options. 1. you think and feel you are slave and you are his slave no matter what. And you accept what he does. You need to communicate with him. tell him what your feeling, how your thinking, make sure your both on the same page. 2. you talk to him, try to communicate, make educated decisions (which frankly I think goes along with #1.) if you do not feel enslaved, if you feel abused, make sure the situation is correct as you percieve it. M/s is not the same as a vanilla relationship. . this one pretty wholeheartedly likes this line of thought. slavery does not allow for equal rights in a M/s relationship. maybe it does, but it sure seems to be going down a slippery slope, if that it is the case. being captive and subject to the desires, and whims of another, that is what the dominion of one over another is all about. production of joy and happiness should be paramount in your movements so that all can see and hear them. if you require some special training, or body modifications, to achive for your Master that happiness and joy, go get it. (maybe, for example, if you have a hard time speaking or speak inappropriately, go get a tongue piercing to remind yourself of your dilemma) producing discord will only make it really tough for you, regardless of where you go. 357-137-289 slave@webbittown.net Next page