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	SD! : Web boards : Submission : "is it wrong?" 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 is it wrong? (96) This topic is now full - if you want to reply, please make a new post on the board itself. 25 Sep 08, 12:44 PM anjuli UK, 18 mths Hmmm... I doubt Krista needs my help but I want to step in and say something here. There is no situation in which we can tell each other to shut up and not comment on these boards. You can choose to ignore someone's point of view, you can decide you don't like it, or that it's a crock of shit but you cannot stop them from contributing. How do we know that Krista has not survived abuse??? Do you, heatherleigh? I don't! And what she was expressing a view on was specifically NOT the OP's situation! I think you have misread her. What she said was that thankfully that had been resolved - the OP left and is in a new relationship - but that she, Krista, wished to comment on the idea that 'informed by experience in law enforcement' the quoted poster thought that they could judge the relationship as either abusive or lifestyle. Given that if the neighbours hear your master and you (or any of us) in mid-session and call the cops who break down your door to find that you have a nice little session going on with you bound, gagged and nicely striped from the crop in his hand, they can drag him off and entirely without any need of YOU to press charges can charge him and get him convicted of a violent assault, I think she made a perfectly valid point!!! We cannot judge what we do by some of the societal norms or the rules of 'law enforcement' when bdsm constitutes a crime in that framework. What we do is often outside of those rules and societal norms so Krista was demonstrating that pointing out that law enforcement agencies would see this behaviour as an offence was somewhat redundant. And as to only commenting on abuse if you've experienced it, I disagree most strongly. All that it takes for evil to prevail is that good men do nothing! If the only people to speak out against any particular evil were the victims of that evil we would be abandoning the weak, the vulnerable and the helpless to the mercy of those who have no conscience. FFS, don't we have enough apathy in the world? Where would the rape victim be, the abused child, the torture victim and the citizens of Zimbabwe and South Africa? Gah! I despair sometimes but I will try to put the hobby horse aside. Abuse in the guise of a D/s or M/s relationship is a problem FOR US ALL. And we damn well better have a view and be willing to speak up and identify the differences or we are lost. It's hard enough to protect our lifestyle from the judgement of society without rejecting the help of those inside who have some idea of what they are talking about. Solidarity is what's needed not infighting! anjuli ps. Off for a cup of tea and a calm down. <laughs> ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Edited 25 Sep 08, 5:53 PM by anjuli 25 Sep 08, 8:49 PM 688-764-833 US, 2 yrs heatherleigh: Your post, while inflammatory, did not disprove what Krista said. At all. How is an officer of the law (or anyone outside an M/s or D/s relationship) supposed to view bruises and know they are the result of consensual play or abuse? If one of the involved parties doesn't make eye contact because they've been cowed or because it's a rule? That the one with the bruises says everything's fine because everything is fine or because they're too terrorized to ask for help? How can an outside party judge these things: and on whose criteria? For example, my coworkers would probably think I was being abused, I don't. While this is obviously a painful, personal, issue for you (and it's terrible that you had to endure abuse), I feel your attack on Krista was completely unnecessary and out of line. Leesie. P. S. I debated stating whether or not I've been abused and decided against it because, in my opinion, it is not germane to the discussion of whether an outside party, trained as a police officer, can determine if a relationship is abusive. 25 Sep 08, 9:11 PM pirate528x US, 3 yrs Y! 688-764-833 wrote: heatherleigh: Your post, while inflammatory, did not disprove what Krista said. At all. How is an officer of the law (or anyone outside an M/s or D/s relationship) supposed to view bruises and know they are the result of consensual play or abuse? If one of the involved parties doesn't make eye contact because they've been cowed or because it's a rule? That the one with the bruises says everything's fine because everything is fine or because they're too terrorized to ask for help? How can an outside party judge these things: and on whose criteria? For example, my coworkers would probably think I was being abused, I don't. While this is obviously a painful, personal, issue for you (and it's terrible that you had to endure abuse), I feel your attack on Krista was completely unnecessary and out of line. Leesie. P. S. I debated stating whether or not I've been abused and decided against it because, in my opinion, it is not germane to the discussion of whether an outside party, trained as a police officer, can determine if a relationship is abusive. I'm a former Investigator,one thing police officers are trained in is knowing the different causes of injuries.An officer can tell the difference between facial injuries from a car wreck and domestic violence.A cop will look at facial and neck contusions and know if a fist or weapon did it.I've never known a cop who looked at a person's ass for signs of abuse.Hell,some of the cops I know are less inhibited than I am.I have many customers at my toy shop who are cops,judges,doctors and social workers.I'm talking about real police officers,not the rent-a-cop at Walmart. Master Tony Edited 26 Sep 08, 1:35 PM by pirate528x 25 Sep 08, 10:12 PM 688-764-833 US, 2 yrs Hello, Master Tony. I am not talking about determining whether a bruise came from a fist or a car wreck: I am talking about determining the *intention* behind the actions that resulted in a bruise: how can one tell if bruises on the face or arms or legs resulted from consensual play or abuse? Leesie 25 Sep 08, 11:14 PM pirate528x US, 3 yrs Y! It takes two people to fight or play.A lot can be seen by the demeanor of the alleged perpetrator.If you know what to look for,you can spot a non- consentual abuser fairly quickly.Law enforcement training academies teach more than kicking ass and taking names.Just so anyone reading this will know,I deplore domestic violence and child-abuse.This is a case of having first hand knowledge of the subject. Master Tony 26 Sep 08, 12:34 AM BaseOne UK, 2 yrs pirate528x wrote: you can spot a non- consentual abuser fairly quickly.Law enforcement training academies teach more than kicking ass and taking names. BUT there are those on here, as you have seen, think they know better than trained people how to spot an abuser, so the Government training is wrong,? the social services welfare are wrong,? police training is wrong,? who know full well about subs and slaves. For people to say they are more knowledgeable than all above, WILL provoke comments from you and others who are of sound mind and rational thought processes. 26 Sep 08, 4:49 AM little_linnet US, 3 yrs Sigh. First of all, heatherleigh, once you've finished your tantrum and calmed down I'll be glad to tell you about living in not one but two abusive relationships. Including a relationship that was abuse in the context of BDSM. So, yanno, if you want to play the "I've been abused so don't argue with me about abuse" game, I think I win it. I visited Albany Power Exchange to have a looksee and saw exactly the kind of stuff that I argue against when people think they can determine from the outside, with simple rubrics, the difference between BDSM and abuse: For example, it says in blanket terms that BDSM "Is based on the safe, sane, consensual theory," "has safe words to stop the scene," "both partners are enjoying themselves," "the dominant respects limits," and "S&M builds the spirit of a submissive". Well, my owner thinks SSC is garbage for idiots to parrot. He does not allow me a safe word. He often does things I don't enjoy at all and beg him to stop. He certainly never lets me set limits on what he does to me. And, "builds the spirit" is a highly subjective thing, and inasmuch as I hardly dream of arguing with him or disrespecting him and am incapable of disobeying him, and think of myself as property which it's his right to do whatever he wishes with, I think a lot of people would conclude that he's destroyed my spirit. I am not abused. But it would be easy for someone who thinks they're "educated" and "trained" about BDSM and slavery to conclude that I am. Tony: pirate528x wrote: I'm a former Investigator,one thing police officers are trained in is knowing the different causes of injuries.An officer can tell the difference between facial injuries from a car wreck and domestic violence. ... and? So, if I have bruises on my face that look like they were left by someone hitting me, what does that tell you about the context in which I received them? Maybe I had an orgasm every time my partner hit me and begged him to do it again next week. Maybe I was sobbing while he punished me for being disobedient. Maybe he was drunk and out of control and terrifying and I was afraid for my life. How would you know? I don't care how kinky the cops you know are. I'm not talking about kink. I know the doctor at the ER, for instance, isn't likely to bat an eye if she finds out I enjoy getting my ass spanked. But if I tell her I must obey my master or I'm severely punished, that what I want to do doesn't matter, that I can't set any limits on his control of me and that I'm his property, she's probably going to conclude that I'm abused. My point is, most people who are aware of BDSM are still NOT aware of what literal enslavement is like and how it works -- and in literal enslavement there are gray areas that supposedly "Kink aware" people aren't equipped to navigate and make judgments on. And that's because their horizons are limited by the idea that the submissive has to be able to call the shots, has to be able to stop what's going on at any time or it's "nonconsensual" and therefore abuse. I am here to stand up and say that my owner has done things to me that were nonconsensual at the time that they happened. That's because my consent is immaterial; I belong to my owner. And this is the LAST freaking place I should have to defend that sentiment. Yes! Some things a dominant can do cross a line and become destructive for the submissive and the relationship. I've experienced that. I expressed my own concerns about the OP's specific situation. But it takes a lot more than following a checklist or determining where bruises are and what made them to determine whether or not a relationship is abusive. Krista The thing you have to remember about girls is that the hyperfluid bearings under the camshafts can be miscalibrated along either axis, so regular maintanence is required to keep resonance in the titanium casing from causing abrasions against the primary sprocket joists. 26 Sep 08, 10:18 AM anjuli UK, 18 mths Thank the gods for some rational thought on this one - I was tempted to lose my sense of humour about it. Why do we feel the need to force each other into pissing contests on abuse and the authority to know it when it's seen? Krista has said it all in terms of the frustration I was feeling with the 'I'm a trained policeman, I know' stuff. Please guys take your dicks off the table... everyone can work out how big they are. You cannot determine context or consent by bruises and your cop instincts about the perp's demeanor isn't evidence of anything. M/s as we deal with it and live it here is about consensual nonconsent. We s-types in 24/7 r/l M/s relationships as they are understood and discussed here don't have rights, limits or safe words. People who do are the exception here. If you have not thought thro the implications of that before please take a moment now to do so. Those of us who live it should not and will not be forced into defending it here in our own place and we should be able to discuss the issues it brings without having to. And some of those issues revolve around abuse, the law and its inability to discriminate and society's wish to deny us the choices WE (and I flatter myself when I say I think there is a strong representative group of s-types here who demonstrate amply here that they have the ability to make that choice fully congnizant of what it means) wish to make in our lives. This is precisely what I meant on the other thread when I said that even in the bdsm world, we're a minority and a misunderstood one at that. If you are offended, horrified or wish to bash this particular 'kink' or lifestyle you should leave SD! - this is not the place for you! anjuli ps. The law in the UK and in parts of the states does deny you many choices and freedoms we think we have. It will open you to prosecution should you make or keep or enjoy images of some bdsm scenes they deem violent and it will charge our masters with assault charges (without any complaint being filed) for what we think are private and consensual activities because society has decided that we need protecting. For goodness sakes in some states fellatio and anal sex are illegal! If you think you can cane someone with impunity or enjoy blood play or scarification in private, with total impunity, think again. Your privacy and right to choose ARE under threat because the law makers and enforcers think they know better than you and have some god-given right to choose for you! We need to wise up and we really do need solidarity on these issues rather than infighting guys. ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Edited 26 Sep 08, 10:20 AM by anjuli 26 Sep 08, 4:32 PM Mistress_Tiara UK, 2 yrs For the record Bella (the OP) is now in another relationship so we are not addressing an individuals specific problem anymore. As for the whole 'is M/s ABUSE'? circus, I say simply this. If you want safe words & consent to each specific act & rights & a say in what happens to you, then you are a very normal individual. No one would criticise you for these wishes. What you are not is a slave in an M/s relationship. I do not believe in 'abusing' slaves; I do not believe in abusing anybody. 'Abuse' in modern society is a hot-word, guaranteed to cause a rabid frenzy, which confusingly means something different to everyone who uses it. It certainly has a definitional problem when applied to M/s. Does it mean hitting your partner? Probably to most people, yes. What about hitting your partner until they bleed? Hell yes, to most people -that doesn't transfer to M/s though unless you believe all M/s that includes physical discipline is 'abuse'. And just because that bleeding is too far for you it doesn't mean it's not a sublime erotic delight to some others here... So does 'abuse' mean sexual penetration people don't want? Again, yes, to most people it probably does. So how does that figure with your Owner's right to fuck you whether you feel like it or not? This list could go on....and on and on and on. No one should have to live a life where they are abused. If you consider yourself in an M/s, D/s or, hell, even just a kinky relationship & you feel deeply deeply unhappy, deeply deeply mistreated and it's a serious problem you can't sort out, then get the hell out. Contract or not, collar or not. M/s life will be hard a lot of the time, that's the nature of being Owned. If it's too hard & it's destroying you, then it's not the life for you and you should get out - regardless of whether or not it is designated abusive by anyone here. Why get hung up in this loop of definitional hell? If a relationship is broken beyond repair it doesn't make any bloody difference if it's 'abuse' or not - it's still not going to work either way and everyone concerned will be better off calling this relationship a day, and starting again. If however you have carefully picked a Dominant you know from carefully personal experience built up over time, who you have eventually given yourself to because they've earned that trust, who you can trust not to damage you, then you are less likely to find yourself in that situation and more likely to be able to work out how to handle any issues that arise and stick things out. We live outside the norm, so normal definitional tools are a very flawed way to discuss this. Trying to label 'abuse' as some absolute, using wider societies definitions when we live this highly unusual life, and criticising others who disagree does not help anyone. *~*Mistress Tiara*~* Edited 26 Sep 08, 10:31 PM by Mistress_Tiara 27 Sep 08, 8:46 PM jakesemma US(WA), 15 mths Y! little_linnet wrote: Sigh. First of all, heatherleigh, once you've finished your tantrum and calmed down I'll be glad to tell you about living in not one but two abusive relationships. Including a relationship that was abuse in the context of BDSM. So, yanno, if you want to play the "I've been abused so don't argue with me about abuse" game, I think I win it. I visited Albany Power Exchange to have a looksee and saw exactly the kind of stuff that I argue against when people think they can determine from the outside, with simple rubrics, the difference between BDSM and abuse: For example, it says in blanket terms that BDSM "Is based on the safe, sane, consensual theory," "has safe words to stop the scene," "both partners are enjoying themselves," "the dominant respects limits," and "S&M builds the spirit of a submissive". Well, my owner thinks SSC is garbage for idiots to parrot. He does not allow me a safe word. He often does things I don't enjoy at all and beg him to stop. He certainly never lets me set limits on what he does to me. And, "builds the spirit" is a highly subjective thing, and inasmuch as I hardly dream of arguing with him or disrespecting him and am incapable of disobeying him, and think of myself as property which it's his right to do whatever he wishes with, I think a lot of people would conclude that he's destroyed my spirit. I am not abused. But it would be easy for someone who thinks they're "educated" and "trained" about BDSM and slavery to conclude that I am. Tony: pirate528x wrote: I'm a former Investigator,one thing police officers are trained in is knowing the different causes of injuries.An officer can tell the difference between facial injuries from a car wreck and domestic violence. ... and? So, if I have bruises on my face that look like they were left by someone hitting me, what does that tell you about the context in which I received them? Maybe I had an orgasm every time my partner hit me and begged him to do it again next week. Maybe I was sobbing while he punished me for being disobedient. Maybe he was drunk and out of control and terrifying and I was afraid for my life. How would you know? I don't care how kinky the cops you know are. I'm not talking about kink. I know the doctor at the ER, for instance, isn't likely to bat an eye if she finds out I enjoy getting my ass spanked. But if I tell her I must obey my master or I'm severely punished, that what I want to do doesn't matter, that I can't set any limits on his control of me and that I'm his property, she's probably going to conclude that I'm abused. My point is, most people who are aware of BDSM are still NOT aware of what literal enslavement is like and how it works -- and in literal enslavement there are gray areas that supposedly "Kink aware" people aren't equipped to navigate and make judgments on. And that's because their horizons are limited by the idea that the submissive has to be able to call the shots, has to be able to stop what's going on at any time or it's "nonconsensual" and therefore abuse. I am here to stand up and say that my owner has done things to me that were nonconsensual at the time that they happened. That's because my consent is immaterial; I belong to my owner. And this is the LAST freaking place I should have to defend that sentiment. Yes! Some things a dominant can do cross a line and become destructive for the submissive and the relationship. I've experienced that. I expressed my own concerns about the OP's specific situation. But it takes a lot more than following a checklist or determining where bruises are and what made them to determine whether or not a relationship is abusive. Krista Krista, I love you. Seriously. I've explained this exact concept, probably a hundred, thousand times. What happens to me might look like domestic violence. and I LIKE IT. Try explaining that one to someone who feels people shouldn't be abused. or how I must have something serious wrong because I "like" being raped and hurt in a way thats not just "ravishment fantasies" I have friends who ask me to write snuff stories for them and their partner to read together because they can't actually "be" murdered, but its a fantasy of theirs. Im told I am insane for WRITING these fantasies out FOR them to read. Ugh. I feel for people who were abused. I've had trauma growing up and I had to work around my issues to figure out what really "was" me and what was my fear from past abuse. I know I like the things I do INSPITE of being abused, I had to overcome my fear of a "domineering" abusive asshole and grow in a no-limits, no-control relationshipw tih a "dominant" man and admit my sexual and physical desires that included the same things that I had been abused by, except in a context where he's doing it while totally in control and its methodical. I don't think you can ever compare two situations.. there are people who enjoy being "victims"... Being a :victum: is just as much of a kink as a "little girl" who has a "daddy". I just don't think people can ever put their "ideas" on someone else's relationship.. I think the only person who can decide whats right and wrong are the persons "in" the relationship. Next page