This page sponsored by JT's Stockroom    [other banners]

	SD! : Web boards : IE Theory : "Slave vs Submissive" 1 2 3 Slave vs Submissive (23) Thu 6 Mar 08, 5:10 PM x_vella_x US, 17 mths *Slave- A person who is owned: that is, someone in a relationship with an owner who has ultimate authority over them, and from which the slave cannot remove themselves. *Oxford Second Edition- For example, the second edition of the Oxford English Dictionary gives: "One who is the property of, and entirely subject to another person, whether by capture, purchase or birth; a servant completely divested of freedom and personal rights." *Voluntary Submission- A relationship in which a submissive continually consents to obey and serve a dominant and their continued presence in the relationship is voluntary. Greetings, Given the recent discussions on TSR, I am trying to understand the difference in slave and submissive. For me, and I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, the label slave is unrealistic. However, I recognize that this could be due to the fact that I do not have a whole lot of experience in this area. From what I have found in the sites wiki there are three definitions that could apply to this discussion in which I have posted here for quick reference. Slave, Voluntary Submission, and the Oxford definition of slave. The problem I have with these definitions, and I would not really consider it a problem, (more like a lack of understanding) is that they would imply that while submissive is voluntary, slave is not. I'm not sure that one person on this site can claim to have entered into any form of relationship without consent, and does not continually consent to remain in the relationship everyday. If I am wrong, then the relationship is quite illegal, and I would be surprised that someone who is being held without consent could actually hold the means to be posting here. I suppose the discussion would then have to move in the direction of… Internal Enslavement- a process and a set of practical techniques which use detailed examination of a slave's thoughts, emotions and past experiences to establish and maintain a solid and inescapable state of ownership.. For the most part, I feel I understand this. However, I would like to gain a deeper understanding due to the fact that I would not wish to be closed minded on these things. Is there anyone on this site who would be willing to further explain this to me directly, and from their own point of view without feeling that I am attacking their beliefs or who they are? With the understanding, that I may or may not come back with an altering viewpoint. Not out of a need to disagree, but to continue down the path of understanding and enlightenment. I know that this has been discussed on here more than once, but find that I come to an understanding much quicker when my own ideas are challenged directly. I have discussed this on other forums and find thatI am not being challenged enough. Perhaps, it is something I will never understand until experiencing it directly. Perhaps, it is something I will never agree with. But, I think what is important is that I am trying to understand it, and know that if there is anyone who could challenge my beliefs it is the members of TSR. That is, if they are willing to take the time to do so. Respectfully, brenna (who has recently had her name changed, but hasn't gotten around to changing it here) 6 Mar 08, 5:17 PM Kaitlyn 11 mths I am on the same page as you, brenda. I consider myself to be a subi, but I do also consider myself to be the property of my Domme. I've just tried to ignore the definition and classes. I know what I am so that's enough for me, ya know? “Fear may induce the show of submission; but love only can truly subjugate a haughty spirit.” 6 Mar 08, 5:26 PM anjuli UK, 18 mths Hi brenna Well, that's one big set of questions. I will have a start at the slave issue for you. I guess where your understanding is falling down is simply on the matter of consensual non-consent - grasping that for those of us in M/s relationships, we consent at the outset and agree that beyond that point, no further consent is required by our Masters for anything. We cannot end the relationship because we have consented to non-consent from the point of agreement forward and handed all control to our Masters. My own contract and dynamic for instance contains an express instruction to remove myself if Master loses his marbles and endangers me but other than that there is no out. If I lost it and ran, he'd come get me - and that's just what I wanted and need. This contrasts with voluntary submssion in that the consent there is ongoing, for each specific day, event, session, or activity. The submissive retains therefore a measure of control - altho of course there will be variations on how far each will be prepared to go - just as it should be. I will let others take up the IE issue apart from saying that it of course also impacts heavily on a slave's ability to leave a Master - even in direst circumstances, so it is linked to what we have been discussing above. More thoughts as things develop and they come to me. And, no, no defensiveness at all. Your questions are welcome because you clearly wish to understand rather than to judge, so you are welcome. I hope you find enlightenment and interesting answers. anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 6 Mar 08, 5:37 PM 369-359-730 11 mths Gah, you beat me to everything I was typing Anjuli... ah well, well said n_n Little bit to add for the OP though. I noticed you mentioned reading the TSR wiki, have you checked out Tanos' Internal Enslavement site? That provides much more depth on the topics in the wiki. Also some of the members here also have links to their own writings that my be of help, Yarakot's and Raven Kaldera's I've found especially helpful in answering some of my more difficult questions, though those are just the two examples I've had the most time to read over. Working with GuideOne in the hopes that we've both found what we're looking for in each other. 6 Mar 08, 7:51 PM 139-715-032 US(MA), 3 yrs x_vella_x wrote: The problem I have with these definitions, and I would not really consider it a problem, (more like a lack of understanding) is that they would imply that while submissive is voluntary, slave is not. I'm not sure that one person on this site can claim to have entered into any form of relationship without consent, and does not continually consent to remain in the relationship everyday. If I am wrong, then the relationship is quite illegal, and I would be surprised that someone who is being held without consent could actually hold the means to be posting here. In voluntary enslavement, you give consent at the outset and both parties make quite certain this is something the slave is suited for in the long term before a high level of control and permanence is established. Once that level of control is established, ongoing consent isn't necessary. However, if an honorable master really believes the relationship is harming the slave and there is no way of setting things right, he'll let her go. The slave has agreed to trust the master's judgment on the matter - if she thinks she's being mistreated but he doesn't, she's obligated to stay. Whether or not she really does stay in that case depends on how effect the process of Internal Enslavement has been. (For comparison, External Enslavement is the process of holding someone by force - threats, coercion, restraint, and so forth. Internal Enslavement is a psychological process. If the slave actively chooses to stay out of a sense of duty or obligation or whatever, that is ongoing voluntary submission, not enslavement.) A number of IE slaves here have described situations like getting mad at their master and deciding to pack their things and leave. What tends to happen is they sit on the edge of their bed staring blankly at their suitcase for two hours thinking that any minute now they pack that suitcase and walk out the door. Eventually they give up and go to the kitchen to make dinner. Then there are the folks for whom the Internal Enslavement process was not so effective, and when push comes to shove they leave. But 99% of the time, the slave is quite happy and content with their role, and if they had the choice to leave, they wouldn't. Most of the time they don't act any different than someone in ongoing voluntary submission. The slave's inability to withdraw consent only becomes apparent in that 1% of the time where the slave is having a really difficult time or there is something extremely challenging going on and they very much would like to be anywhere but here. In those times the master holds them to the commitment they made and helps them get through the rough patch. -- Joshua Raven's Boy, Joshua, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Raven Kaldera. You may contact Joshua directly with any questions or comments at josh@cauldronfarm.com, or contact Raven at cauldronfarm@hotmail.com. 6 Mar 08, 8:00 PM 369-359-730 11 mths *finds himself smacking his forehead for forgetting to list Joshua's writings in the one's he mentioned earlier* Working with GuideOne in the hopes that we've both found what we're looking for in each other. 6 Mar 08, 8:23 PM anjuli UK, 18 mths 369-359-730 wrote: Gah, you beat me to everything I was typing Anjuli... ah well, well said n_n <snip> Sorry! So annoying when that happens. And thanks. ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 6 Mar 08, 8:50 PM Michael_X UK, 3 yrs The key thing to remember is that TSR is about what the broader bdsm community would consider a small subgroup of itself, M/s and/or D/s, and what the M/s community might consider a subset of itself, IE/TPE/Absolute/APE. Restricting the use of the word slave to those who meet the local definition helps reduce miscommunication and aids discussion of other M/s topics. The second key thing is that it is best to avoid an either/or approach with the words slave and submissive as being the only two options, or to consider them as opposites, and then try to do a compare and contrast. My impression is that, in exploring M/s, people have a need to debate this until they get it out of their system so that they can move on to the interesting stuff. So if you want to understand "slave" you might be better to look at slave v non-slave and leave submissive out of it, and when I say non-slave I am not intending it as a euphemism for submissive but rather for all sentients that do not fit the category slave. You will encounter many people talking about slaves here, elsewhere on line and in the bdsm scene. Just remind yourself that whilst they may be using the same words they are probably speaking a different language and engage the universal translator. Michael 6 Mar 08, 10:51 PM luna_lux US, 12 mths Y! 139-715-032 wrote: Whether or not she really does stay in that case depends on how effect the process of Internal Enslavement has been. <snip> But 99% of the time, the slave is quite happy and content with their role, and if they had the choice to leave, they wouldn't. Most of the time they don't act any different than someone in ongoing voluntary submission. The slave's inability to withdraw consent only becomes apparent in that 1% of the time where the slave is having a really difficult time or there is something extremely challenging going on and they very much would like to be anywhere but here. In those times the master holds them to the commitment they made and helps them get through the rough patch. -- Joshua how, then, would you describe someone who is hypothetically "enslaved" via IE, but hasn't had the experience of enacting the scenario above? is that a submissive? or a slave? i'm asking because if it's happening around 1% of the time, what of those folks who consider themselves slaves but haven't had the experience of proving it via this method? since it's not a common occurrence, how does one determine whether they are a slave or not, *pre* this scenario? just curious. 6 Mar 08, 11:07 PM 862-203-011 AU, 23 mths x_vella_x wrote: Slave vs Submissive Greetings, The problem I have with these definitions, and I would not really consider it a problem, (more like a lack of understanding) is that they would imply that while submissive is voluntary, slave is not. I'm not sure that one person on this site can claim to have entered into any form of relationship without consent, and does not continually consent to remain in the relationship everyday. One did enter into this relationship with consent. From that point on, the consent is presumed to be there. In this relationship, unlike some here, we discuss things, but the ultimate authority and decision making rests with Master. We joke here that with the big M, comes the big R for responsibility. This is why it is so important to choose the right person, for each individual, rather than to jump into these relationships. A high degree of compatibility, along with honesty and open communication, are essential for them to work. You need to trust the person you put in charge of your life. As for consenting to remain in the relationship, well that is where that whole IE thing comes in. Now one can only speak as she finds, so this is purely subjective and personal. Contemplating leaving makes ones mind go blank. It is like having no thoughts on the matter. The mind sort of skitters around the subject. It really is the most peculiar sensation, particularly as one has always been a serial leaver. x_vella_x wrote: If I am wrong, then the relationship is quite illegal, and I would be surprised that someone who is being held without consent could actually hold the means to be posting here. Large chunks of BDSM are illegal, depending on which part of the world you are in. Edit for typo Master's piece Edited 7 Mar 08, 12:01 AM by 862-203-011 6 Mar 08, 11:17 PM The_Devil_Himself US, 17 mths x_vella_x wrote: Slave vs Submissive Internal Enslavement- a process and a set of practical techniques which use detailed examination of a slave's thoughts, emotions and past experiences to establish and maintain a solid and inescapable state of ownership.. For the most part, I feel I understand this. However, I would like to gain a deeper understanding due to the fact that I would not wish to be closed minded on these things. Is there anyone on this site who would be willing to further explain this to me directly, and from their own point of view without feeling that I am attacking their beliefs or who they are? With the understanding, that I may or may not come back with an altering viewpoint. Not out of a need to disagree, but to continue down the path of understanding and enlightenment. you'll forgive the gender specific language, it's for ease not offense. I see IE as a process of building walls within your slave in which she can have a safe, secure place in which to be able to give herself fully into her own desire to be enslaved. I used the term walls in the "physical" sense not as in walls between one another. IE is a psychological state where you truly feel owned, where the thought of doing anything againist what has been prescribed for you makes you physically ill. A state where being outside of your Owner's will is perhaps the most terrifying thought you have ever had. Think about a world where you are accepted, totally. Think about a world where no matter what, the one person who has sworn he will not give up on you doesn't. Think about a world where someone will go thru the darkest paths to bring you to your desired state. A world where one is dedicated to make more out of you then you could ever make out of yourself. Think about someone who takes the time to get to know you. Someone who is willing to study you and know you better then you know yourself. Someone who is willing to take on the responsibilty of your life. Someone who is willing to make the tough decisions and stand by those even when they go tits up. Someone who is willing to be a wall even when the one who wanted that wall is trying to shatter it. What would you be willing to give that person who was willing to give you all of that?? Would you give him your obediance?? Your loyality? Now think about the process as he learns you, as he finds your strengths, your weaknesses, your strings, your buttons everything. Think about someone who has the power to make you want to bare your soul to him and when you do, even for your darkest sins, you find acceptance, now what would you give?? IE is the process of helping a slave see that what they are in life, is a slave and that it is not only ok, but wanted and needed by a certain group of people out there. You give them acceptance, you give them strength, you lead them on the path to their own acceptance and the self actualization of all they ever wanted even if they did not know they did want it. As an Owner you give them walls, you give them safety, you give them security, you give them rules and expectations of behaviour, you let them know that this is what gains your approval and thus keeps them in their desired state and that anything less threatens the freedoms that they feel within the boundaries of your Dominant nature. You take ownership of them and treat them like the property they desire to be. You develop that mindset by constant positive reinforcement when they act within your prescribed boundaries and you offer them atonement for the guilt they will feel when they step outside those boundaries. For us, her only true punishment is my disappointment. IE is a goal you set that you may or may not ever reach. However, reaching it is not the point, the journey to it is the point. Setting, tweaking and playing with the interpersonal dynamic you share as you both move toward you desired goal is a journey that brings true and honest joy for the right people. In IE, it is not that the slave breaks a rule and you punish her, it is that you want to bring the slave to a point where they never even thinks to do anything againist the wishes of their owner. You show them that to break the wishes of their Owner is to cause an abomination againist themselves thus soiling their owner's property and making him look "bad" in the process. All of this takes consistency from both parties and a clear understanding of what is wanted, needed and expected from both parties. It takes a state of honest communication that both parties need to be ready to handle. It takes both of you being who you say you are and it takes commitment to stay and not run at the first sign of trouble. It takes a calm head and clear vision to see that you are both working toward the same goal. A relationship you are both happy in and want to live your life in together. Of course this is all my opinion and it is only as good as those who wish to believe it. Passivity in a man is a denial of manhood Next page