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	SD! : Web boards : IE Theory : "M/s Physical or Psychological ?" M/s Physical or Psychological ? (8) Fri 7 Mar 08, 3:35 AM Greebomc UK, 2 yrs Just some random thinking after reading through some of the recent hot topics on the boards. Can M/s be purely psychological, or does it have to have that physical presence also? How can a 100lb M dominate a 250lb s if it isn't all down to psychology? And if that's true then doesn't that validate the M/s connection in LDR's and online only? Also if M/s is reliant on the physical factor does physical dominance/intimidation play a part? Wouldn't that imply that a bout of sickness on the M's part would negate slavery and also rule out disabled M's? How much does fear/fantasy play a part of M/s? Just some random musings I'd love to hear some opinions on. Regards G (edited to add that I'm not asking the difference between External enslavement and Internal Enslavement, but how much the physhical presence of the person can affect this) Blessed are the cracked, for they will let in the light Edited Fri 7 Mar 08, 3:47 AM by Greebomc 7 Mar 08, 5:02 AM 862-203-011 AU, 23 mths Greebomc wrote: M/s Physical or Psychological ? Can M/s be purely psychological, or does it have to have that physical presence also? How can a 100lb M dominate a 250lb s if it isn't all down to psychology? Normally one would say it is mainly psychological, but it is nice to have the physical presence. Size is irrelevant, ask anyone who has been on the receiving end of this one in full flight. Having said that, in this relationship, that physical component adds an extra level of frisson. There is something "nice" about being with someone who can literally pick you up and put you over their shoulder to tan your arse. Greebomc wrote: And if that's true then doesn't that validate the M/s connection in LDR's and online only? Now this is not an area that one has any experience with, but according to Master (who can be a twue geek) online can be an intense relationship. Having been on the receiving end of a few of His communicaes, one can believe it Greebomc wrote: Also if M/s is reliant on the physical factor does physical dominance/intimidation play a part? Wouldn't that imply that a bout of sickness on the M's part would negate slavery and also rule out disabled M's? One thinks physical dominance is an added bonus, rather than the be end all. Master is in charge even when sick and is, if anything, more demanding. As for a disability ruling out M/s, one would find it very unlikely, but one is sure there are those here, far better qualified to answer. Greebomc wrote: How much does fear/fantasy play a part of M/s? We leave fear generation to our vile tempered cat, as it has physical intimidation down pat. Fantasy on the other hand is always a welcome diversion, not that the nurse's uniform seems to speed up Master's recovery in any measurable way Master's piece 7 Mar 08, 8:55 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 3 yrs Greebomc wrote: Can M/s be purely psychological, or does it have to have that physical presence also? How can a 100lb M dominate a 250lb s if it isn't all down to psychology? And if that's true then doesn't that validate the M/s connection in LDR's and online only? Also if M/s is reliant on the physical factor does physical dominance/intimidation play a part? Wouldn't that imply that a bout of sickness on the M's part would negate slavery and also rule out disabled M's? How much does fear/fantasy play a part of M/s? One at a time: 1) Well, theoretically, M/s could happen without the physical presence of the owner. But it would be a very rare dom/me who could pull that off. Not impossible, but very difficult. They'd have to be a hell of a psychologist and manipulator. For us the physical presence was important. 2) Yes, it's all psychology. 3) See #1. 4) No, physical intimidation does not play a part for us. My dominance is not based on my physical strength, but my strength of will. I have an extremely strong will. That's why I'm still alive. I'm also a crip who can sit in my chair with my cane, look a sub in the eye, say something without raising my voice, and enforce obedience. It's not a parlor trick that I throw around, or do often, or do where I have no right to trespass. But I can do it. The fact that I'm short, fat, and half-crippled means nothing under those circumstances. It's all in the will. 5) I'm one of the disabled M's and obviously I have no problem getting people in my service to do what I want, when I put my whole will behind it, unless they are very strong and very set against me. I expect that I wouldn't work out for someone who needed to feel physically dominated, though. But I would feel bad for the dom with that slave. They couldn't ever have a sick day, and gods forbid that they should get old. 6) That's something probably better addressed by Joshua. -Raven Kaldera Edited 7 Mar 08, 9:26 AM by ravenkaldera 7 Mar 08, 11:39 AM masterfiremaam US(AZ), 2 yrs There's a school of thought (that I agree with, naturally ) that feels: Top/bottom = physical D/s = mental M/s = spiritual These things can go together in any combination with the roles mixing, too (so you can have a masochistic Master and a sadistic slave). What you feel it boils down to is based on which you feel is most important. It will vary from person to person, couple to couple. I feel that the spiritual is the most important...but I certainly have control and like to Top...and sometimes bottom (or Top from the bottom!). If I had to pick just one to base anne and I's relationship on, it'd be spirit. Master Fire "Be excellent to each other." - Bill and Ted *air guitar* 7 Mar 08, 1:15 PM Yarakot 3 yrs One of the classic mistakes we make is to think that the mind and body are separate entities and can be treated and thought about separately. This is not the case. Our thoughts and feelings are often the result of the very physical inputs our bodies provide and our bodies are likewise influenced by our thoughts. You ask whether M/s can be purely psychological or whether it has to have physical presence. I assume that you're asking about the presence of the dominant. For the submissive, M/s is always going to affect both the mind and the body. Physical presence is about quite a bit more than how large the person is. We get our cues from more things than just a calculation, "Hey, he can beat me up and she can't." In addition, there is a complex hormonal and chemical dance through our cells that changes how we smell, how we look, and so forth. Sometimes physical intimidation plays a part in M/s but I think that's pretty rare. I think it has more to do with how the person stands, treats one, and so forth and these things are not psychological alone. They are physical reactions to the physical presence of the other person. Pull the physical presence from the equation and you pull a lot of the inputs that tell us that we are below this person in a hierarchy. Reducing the inputs reduces the effectiveness and the stability of the dominance and control. As to physical illness, when my owner is sick for a long time it does interfere with his dominance of me. There is no question of that in my life. At those times, what keeps me on track is less him and more me and my own sense of honor. There is no magic in M/s. There is no static state that once set in motion stays in motion forever. It is the nature of things to change and deteriorate. Healthy owners prevent that. Sick ones are less capable of doing so. I don't see how this would rule out disabled dominants. As far as I can tell they are just as capable of projecting a dominant presence. I assume that when they get sick they are less capable of preventing things from going to hell in a handbasket. But that has nothing to do with disability. I'm not sure what you're asking when you ask what part fear/fantasy play in M/s. M/s is real life. In real life fear and fantasy are constant problems we must deal with. I suppose that they can be used as anything else is to reinforce dominance, but fear causes instability and fantasy leads to other problems. Carolyn And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more. --Erica Jong * * * Interested in meeting me or other TSR people? Come to the TSR Meet & Greet at MAsT DC in August, 2008. Edited 7 Mar 08, 2:31 PM by Yarakot 7 Mar 08, 8:24 PM 139-715-032 US(MA), 3 yrs Greebomc wrote: Can M/s be purely psychological, or does it have to have that physical presence also? How can a 100lb M dominate a 250lb s if it isn't all down to psychology? Some people need to be physically overpowered in order to fully submit. Some people can only submit to someone who is more clever than them, or more successful, or more insightful, or has better emotional control, or whatever. I think it has a lot to do with the values and the (for lack of a better phrase) "conflict resolution tactics" you were raised with. If you are accustomed to disputes being settled by force, then it may be very difficult for you to fully submit to someone you could wrestle to the ground. If you are accustomed to people gaining favor/power by giving money and gifts, you may have a hard time fully submitting to someone who you give money to. For me it is emotional control. If I can needle someone into losing their temper, I feel like I have control over them. It doesn't matter if they beat me up afterwards. On the flip side, if you have a slave who gets caught up in continual power struggles, it can be instructive to refuse to engage with them on the "battlefield" of their choice, even if you are confident you can win. If they get physically aggressive, don't knock them around or restrain them - don't even touch them. Tell them calmly and politely that they will sit down now. If you think they really need to be knocked around, hire someone else to do it. But if they are the type to try to lawyer their way out of rules or show how clever they are by proving you wrong, it can be better to smack them before they even finish their sentence and make no comment whatsoever on the merit of their arguments. Whichever way it goes, it helps to express disdain for their preferred method of resolving disputes in favor of your own favored method. Make it clear that if they think they can retain power by being stronger than you (or more clever or whatever) they are mistaken. Make the only valid field of combat one where you have such a clear advantage that it would be pointless to challenge you. Greebomc wrote: Also if M/s is reliant on the physical factor does physical dominance/intimidation play a part? Wouldn't that imply that a bout of sickness on the M's part would negate slavery and also rule out disabled M's? If the illness/disability strongly effects the areas or power that the slave finds essential, then I think it can definitely affect things in the beginning. It can make it very hard for the master to establish control. (Especially in the case of an illness that tends to make you tired or passive or whiny.) Obviously a master should never engage their submissive on a front where they are at a disadvantage. Force them to engage with you in an area where you are confident you will win. (I've known dominants who will orchestrate a situation without the submissive's knowledge to give themselves the advantage, and let the submissive think they won fairly, but I think that is problematic in a long-term relationship.) In any case, once the dynamic is well established, I don't think it matters so much. Greebomc wrote: And if that's true then doesn't that validate the M/s connection in LDR's and online only? I think a large part of the benefit of being physically present has nothing to do with brute strength or physical punishment. It would be the same in any situation where the people are physically in each other's presence for significant periods of time day-to-day. The way in which people experience each other face-to-face is more than what can be conveyed in an email or phone call. My main problem with LDRs is that the potential for unwitting self-deception (and intentional misrepresentation) is so high. It is very easy to maintain an illusion with someone who you rarely see. LDR masters will generally say they have complete control over their slaves and the slave would leave their spouse and quit their job and move to Ohio with them if they commanded it. I'd wager that 90% of them are wrong and at least half of them know it. There can be good reasons for keeping things long-distance, but in most cases I think the reason is that the master doesn't want the responsibility of a full-time M/s relationship and/or doesn't actually have enough control to pull it off. (Temporary long-distance is a different thing. That is more a matter of planning and patience.) Greebomc wrote: How much does fear/fantasy play a part of M/s? ... I'm actually not sure what you are asking with this. -- Joshua Raven's Boy, Joshua, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Raven Kaldera. You may contact Joshua directly with any questions or comments at josh@cauldronfarm.com, or contact Raven at cauldronfarm@hotmail.com. 7 Mar 08, 9:30 PM Michael_X UK, 3 yrs Q1. Can M/s be purely psychological, or does it have to have that physical presence also? I'd say that physical presence is necessary. Q2. How can a 100lb M dominate a 250lb s if it isn't all down to psychology? Carolyn is right. Someone said "The man on the street is a Cartesian dualist", your starting point is contrary to the way brains work when you make a distinction between psychological and physical. Q3. And if that's true then doesn't that validate the M/s connection in LDR's and online only? In terms of how M/s is used here, and my understanding of how M/s works, LDR/online only M/s is biologically impossible. Just as, no matter how intimate, deep, emotional and sexually hot a cyber relationship is one cannot conceive or impregnate over the internet, for similar reasons one cannot have Absolute/TPE/IE M/s over the internet. I think one might approach M/s and with technological advances it may be possible one day, as may procreation. Q4. Also if M/s is reliant on the physical factor does physical dominance/intimidation play a part? Wouldn't that imply that a bout of sickness on the M's part would negate slavery and also rule out disabled M's? Such would make things more difficult, beyond a certain level of illness or disability then yes. Temporary versus permanent is also a relevant factor. Again the question is based upon binary thinking whereas disability is a heterogeous spectrum. Q5. How much does fear/fantasy play a part of M/s? Tools to be used, judiciously. Regards, Michael 7 Mar 08, 9:46 PM The_Devil_Himself US, 17 mths Greebomc wrote: M/s Physical or Psychological ? Just some random thinking after reading through some of the recent hot topics on the boards. Can M/s be purely psychological, or does it have to have that physical presence also? I believe that M/s relationships are psychological in their purest sense. The human mind is a very powerful thing. If you can make someone believe you and justify their belief you will own them. Think about certain parts of our soceity and how people are so easily led into doing real atrocities by others who seem to be just normal people and yet people follow them. People are attracted to strength in all forms. A "powerful presence" in personality is just as "intimadating" as a person with physical presence. There is not one single physical nescessity in the ownership of my little bitch. I can bring her to her knees, I can bring her to tears, I can make her feel things and do things and never physically touch her. Greebomc wrote: How can a 100lb M dominate a 250lb s if it isn't all down to psychology? Real domination of someone has nothing to do with physical size. Greebomc wrote: And if that's true then doesn't that validate the M/s connection in LDR's and online only? The only validation any relationship needs, is that of the people involved within the relationship. I have seen and felt connections that span thousands of miles. I have known some people to do some outlandish things for people never never actually met. I personally am not going to put down any relationship that has a fully working and functioning power dynamic based on the locality of the people involved. In my experience, an online only situation in which nothing but the internet is used, is not condusive to an M/s dynamic. Greebomc wrote: Also if M/s is reliant on the physical factor does physical dominance/intimidation play a part? Wouldn't that imply that a bout of sickness on the M's part would negate slavery and also rule out disabled M's? You ask very valid questions but again, especially in a M/s situation, for a variety of reasons including these, the physical "presence" is not as important as the strength that comes from inside of a person. It is what a Owner is made of that will enable him to enslave people at their deepest levels. At these levels it would not matter what the Owner was going thru in the physical sense, his slaves are bound to him beyond the physical dimension. Greebomc wrote: How much does fear/fantasy play a part of M/s? I think fear has its place in an M/s relationship and can be used as a motivator in many ways. Fantasy is great in the sexual arena and for play, but my opinion is it needs to stay away from the workings of the dynamic itself Passivity in a man is a denial of manhood Edited 7 Mar 08, 10:07 PM by The_Devil_Himself 8 Mar 08, 1:22 AM ShadowIT US, 11 mths Y! I have to agree with the other posts, it is mostly psychological/emotional bondage. I believe the physical aspect only counts in the basic physical presence. I am not a big man and aaminah out weighs me by a bit, that combined with her martial arts background, it is not inconceivable that she could break me in two if she was so inclined. In this Home slavery is about getting in her head and understanding what makes her tick, earning her trust, and being strong enough to bend her will to my own. Being in control of my world, my life, and my Home. Showing the confidence and independence to go my own way, and helping her to understand who and what she is and showing her the tools which she has available to become the best she can be in all she is and does. Shadow Ride Safe Live Free