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	SD! : Web boards : IE Theory : "Nurture vs. Conditioning" 1 2 Nurture vs. Conditioning (12) Wed 12 Mar 08, 5:21 PM Devils_concubine UK, 17 mths Himself and I were having a discussion earlier on the developmental stages one goes through when entering into a M/s relationship. The topic took a slight curve when we hit upon the theory of conditioning, the question arising being: When you're talking about "development" in a M/s sense, does the line between the "nurture of development as a Dominant/submissive" cross into the "conditioning of you as a Dominant/submissive"? Here's my (shortish) take on it: I think you can nurture your personality, but I also think aspects of that personality can be conditioned. Perhaps it's more a case that within a M/s relationship, as you nurture the development of the dynamic, you condition your responses to certain stimuli in order that you maintain that dynamic as your partner dictates. However, it cannot ~all~ be about conditioning. We have to develop as submissives (or Dominants) as ~people~, and thus nurturing the personality development of you ~as~ a submissive or a Dominant. I also think it becomes more difficult to maintain a D/s dynamic if the submissive becomes further nurtured in her (or his) development than the Dominant. When that happens the Dominant can only maintain the conditioning aspect of the development of the dynamic, for, without having nurtured His Dominance to the same level as His submissive, the submissive begins to stagnate in her own desire for further development (and the further nurturing of their dynamic) that the Dominant is not able to provide. The lines between "nurture" and "conditioning" can become very blurred and I think at that stage - when one can no longer tell the difference between the two - that is when relationships and M/s dynamics begin to fall apart. ~*~ So, all that said, anyone else have any thoughts they'd care to share? xx "Property of The Devil Himself" 12 Mar 08, 6:48 PM 369-359-730 11 mths What is your definition of nurturing and of conditioning? Working with GuideOne in the hopes that we've both found what we're looking for in each other. "When you have given everything, then you have everything to gain." (Quote from the card "The Well of Life" from the Magic The Gathering card game... yes... I am a bit of a geek like that) 12 Mar 08, 8:32 PM 178-529-454 CA, 10 mths When Goddess first brought me into the lifetsyle i was a complete newbie. i am extremely submissive by nature but there was much to learn if i was going to serve Her. Goddess set forth a number of rules that i was expected to follow..As the days, weeks and months went by She would praise me for learning and following them..In the beginning i took a few miss steps and when they happened Goddess would correct me but in a very loving way. It is an extremely rare occasion when She would/will have to give me a stern warning for breaking a rule. And if i did/do She would/will later explain what i did wrong and why i had to be disciplined for it. Slowly but surely these rules became second nature to me. Then that wonderful day came when She presented me with Her collar. At that point She explained that i knew the rules and was expected to adhere to them. She also brought forth new rules that i was to learn. To me nurturing and conditioning can go hand-in-hand if it is done correctly. On the one hand i know my place, yet on the other hand i also know that Goddess cares for me and only wants the best for me. 178-529-454 13 Mar 08, 1:09 PM Devils_concubine UK, 17 mths 369-359-730 wrote: What is your definition of nurturing and of conditioning? I really have no interest of this becoming a semantic debate, so I'll just put the dictionary definitions down for you: Nurture: –verb (used with object) 1. to feed and protect: to nurture one's offspring. 2. to support and encourage, as during the period of training or development; foster: to nurture promising musicians. 3. to bring up; train; educate. –noun 4. rearing, upbringing, training, education, or the like. 5. development: the nurture of young artists. 6. something that nourishes; nourishment; food. ~*~ ie. (in personal terms) it's about ~my~ growth. ~*~ Conditioning: –noun Psychology. 1. Also called operant conditioning, instrumental conditioning. a process of changing behavior by rewarding or punishing a subject each time an action is performed until the subject associates the action with pleasure or distress. 2. Also called classical conditioning, Pavlovian conditioning, respondent conditioning. a process in which a stimulus that was previously neutral, as the sound of a bell, comes to evoke a particular response, as salivation, by being repeatedly paired with another stimulus that normally evokes the response, as the taste of food. OR: tr.v. con·di·tioned, con·di·tion·ing, con·di·tions 1. To make dependent on a condition or conditions. 2. N/A 3. N/A 4. To accustom (oneself or another) to; adapt: had to condition herself to long hours of hard work; conditioned the troops to marches at high altitudes. 5. N/A 6. N/A 7. Psychology To cause an organism to respond in a specific manner to a conditioned stimulus in the absence of an unconditioned stimulus. ~*~ ie. (again, in personal terms) it's about Himself modifying my responses and behaviour when faced with a certain (or certain set of) stimuli. xx (edited for clarity) "Property of The Devil Himself" Edited 13 Mar 08, 1:12 PM by Devils_concubine 13 Mar 08, 1:18 PM Keeper UK, 10 mths Y! Devils_concubine wrote: ie. (in personal terms) it's about ~my~ growth. ie. (again, in personal terms) it's about Himself modifying my responses and behaviour when faced with a certain (or certain set of) stimuli. Given the definitions supplied, I would argue that conditioning is training & education as defined in points 3 & 4 of nurture. I do however notice you make a distinction in that nuture applies to you, and conditioning applies to him, and that itself interests me. 13 Mar 08, 1:49 PM 000-874-172 UK, 5 yrs Having looked at the very kindly, if not intended-to-be-provided definitions, and considered My position as Master, how I treat My Girl, and train her to be My slave, while maintaining her self-worth to keep her in the right place, I'd have to say I use both nurturing and conditioning; I nurture her personality, and encourage her inate little quirks because even for the fact that she 'is' My slave, I don't 'want' her personality to change unless it's by her own accord - I'd notice if something was wrong and she knows that. In nurturing her personality, I make sure that she keeps her self-worth, her self-esteem (some people on these boards reckon on slaves not being allowed any so don't even get me started on 'that'!), and a bright outlook. My Girl 'is', after all, a wonderfully intelligent girl, with a great sense of humour, lots of interests of her own, and for another thing, I think she's just lovely to look at! By nurturing her on a personal front it then gives me a better footing to teach and train her to be a better slave to me, still using nurturing for some of it, because yes, she's still quite the novice, but for some of the things we do, I use conditioning, simply for the fact that for lots of people, old habits die hard, and I'm a great believer in the short, sharp shock - or aversion therapy. In conditioning My Girl to My way, she is learning how I want things done in My house, and I'm giving her time to learn - for now. She is aware though, that this time frame won't last forever and I fully expect her to know everything about how I want My house ran within that timeframe or expect there to be consequences. I've gone to the trouble of setting up the way I want stuff done, and making My Rules - if she does something wrong, she is simply corrected in a suitable aversionary method that will remind her that she did wrong and encourage her to not do that again because My way is the only way, given that My Girl lives is Master's house now. I find it an important point though, that none of the expectations I have for her are unreasonable or out of her reach, and none of the punishments, should she do something wrong in any given instance, are one that she might grow to like any time soon. In saying that, My Girl's been quite good up until now, and I haven't had to use many conditioning punishments at all, because she knows, as much as I really love her, she 'is' My slave, and will be corrected when she's wrong. When she's done well in her service to Me, and she gets a task right, or I review what she's done or check her (personal) journal, she's rewarded, but not necessarily directly after she's been good... Look at it like orgasm control - whilst I control that too, I control everything My Girl does (apart from basic needs), so I may let her buy herself a bar of chocolate for her reward...did I say she could eat it yet? For the best part, she is very well behaved. When she's in full-flight as My slave and servant though, even though she's only been doing this a few weeks, I find her to be remarkable. My Girl certaily made for a much better slave than she ever did a mistress. I find then, that's all down to good, strong guidance, out of all of the above, that not wishing to blow my own trumpet (not that I can play the trumpet, you understand!), only her Master could ever give her. Sean Master's l'il one®(her Rights are Mine in reserve) 13 Mar 08, 2:30 PM drknsshadow 3 yrs Sir uses both nurture and conditioning for myself and faolain. I'll have to think a bit more in order to draw out the details. ~Shadow 13 Mar 08, 2:49 PM Andrews_cumbucket US(ND), 13 mths Y! pet thinks that it is essential to have both conditioning and nurturing. If you do not condition, or train, your s-type how will they know what you want? Sure you can post a list of rules on the wall someplace, but what point would it have, if there is no enforcement of those rules? (pet uses rules as an example, it could be anything really.) As for nutruing, pet thinks nurturing is necessary, especially when one has a lot of conditioning. Without the nurturing, sure they'll be following the rules, doing as you have so thoroughly taught them, but 'why' are they doing it? pet would not dare to assume, however when one initially does something and there are consequences, they do it to not reap the consequences. And once you take out the nurturing, and there is no reward, even if it is only to know you have pleased your M-type, once you take that out and have only the training, they do it to not have punishment, and out of habit. That makes something pretty darn close to a robot. Regarding the conditioning/nurturing towards the Dominant....well, for conditioning even the M-type has rules, really. Call them what you will, but even if they are the M-types preferences, something the s-type is unable to do because of a physical issue, whatever the reason there would be consequences for the M-type to do it. For example, in pet's current physical condition she is unable to remain kneeling with no back support for any length of time. If Master were to ask her to do this for, say, 30 minutes pet would have extreme pain and very limited movement for quite some time thereafter. pet considers this conditioning as it is an action with a consequence that has an effect on Master's decisions. As for nurturing the Dominant... this is a difficult one. One could say that with how, especially 24/7 live-in s-types take care of their M-type, that could b nurturing. Making sure everything is how they like it. Well really the s-type takes care of anything and everything the M-type needs/wants them to. So long as the nurture part is coming from the M-type and the s-type is not a mindless robot, there are at least some positive emotions involved in the s-type service. That in pet's mind makes it nurturing as the s-type is caring for the well-being of their M-type. *curled up at her Master's feet* ~~~~ Master reads and pre-approves every post this pet makes. He will deny and/or completely remove and and all posting rights as He sees fit. ~~~~ 13 Mar 08, 3:53 PM 000-874-172 UK, 5 yrs SkylerPet wrote: ... And once you take out the nurturing, and there is no reward, even if it is only to know you have pleased your M-type, once you take that out and have only the training, they do it to not have punishment, and out of habit. That makes something pretty darn close to a robot... Nurturing, that is to say Devils_concubine wrote: Nurture: –verb (used with object) 1. to feed and protect 2. to support and encourage 3. to train; educate. ..is something that I won't readily withdraw; My Girl needs the attention of knowing that she's doing a good job in her service, through rewards, doing a bad job through punishments or correction, but really, most of all, she needs to know that she will always be (and she will always be) seen as someone to Me, not something. My Girl's enslavement to Me relies heavily on her having been able to build up a lot of self-esteem lost over a period of time. I'm not the kind of Master that would be prepared to let her lose that by withdrawing encouragement for what she does for me. Only last night she asked me whether I thought she told Me she loved me too many times. The fact that I love to hear it and return it, or the fact that I love to tell her I love her equally either first or in response is neither here nor there for the purpse of what I'm saying here, but, my point is that I simply said that she shouldn't ever feel she was saying it too much to me because of my love 'for' her needing the attention. It's all part of her training, nurturing, 'and' conditioning to service wrapped into one. I don't call her it often, but she 'is' My Little Girl after all Sean Master's l'il one®(her Rights are Mine in reserve) 13 Mar 08, 6:04 PM Stoney 10 mths I'm sorry if this is naive (first answer to a post), A Master has a responsibilty to NUTURE the feelings, emotions and spirit of His slave. This is achieved by fullfilling the desire to serve/submit and the Master taking responsibilty for ALL decisions so that his slave is free to follow her nature. To achieve this certain habits, thought processes and 'baggage' (previous emotional experiences, media conditioning, peer pressures, family influences etc) have to be dealt with. Sometimes if we're lucky just chatting about something can clear away a lot of 'emotional fog' and allow us to move on, however there are responses that are too deeply ingrained and require a different approach. These take time, communication, trust and a load more communication. Now different people see this in differnet ways, to some its care and support, to others its done through training, some might think of it as coercion and some as conditioning. We are all being conditioned in some way or form, the most obvious is believing the biased newspapers, magazines and TV. At least between a Master and slave this is consensual and (if the Master is good) to the betterment of both parties and the relationship as a whole. Conditioning in a M/s dynamic (as i understand it) is the physical manifestation of the training that is used to nuture the spirit within. Hope this makes sense Peace to All Stoney 14 Mar 08, 1:44 AM Lord_of_Winter US(NY), 20 mths When lines become blurred and focus is lost, it is usually time to change one's perspective by entering into a stimulating new environment. A master's responsibility is to nurture and to condition his slave, to coax and to coerce. This is necessary to fulfill her nature, and for him to fulfill his desire for control. It is not, however, the responsibility of a slave to condition her master - or better put, to force him to learn and grow and change. That is something he alone is responsible for - but she can provide him with nurture. In taking responsibility for another person's wellbeing, one is also taking responsibility for their growth... as long as one also stretches one's own limits in so doing, I would have thought nurture and (on the part of the master) self-conditioning would be achieved. Next page