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	SD! : Web boards : IE Theory : "Ethical M/s?" 1 2 3 4 5 6 Ethical M/s? (56) Thu 3 Apr 08, 6:12 PM shyfox 12 mths How ethical is your m/s relationship? When you talk about consensual slavery there are so many issues that crop up. For instance, changing the slave's personality and outward appearance in extreme ways. I've heard people say that as long as the slave is “better off” then they feel justified in that cause. I guess that depends on whose standards they are judging by; theirs or the slaves. Is it ethical to change a person's identity, because you can? I see a lot of slaves that start off in dire circumstances (homeless, abusive relations, etc) who are then swooped up by their dominant “savoir”. It might be a great way to take control over someone but is it truly ethical? How do you justify taking advantage of someone who is so clearly at a disadvantage? I think this also applies to anyone who has mental and physical issues that might impair them. How does a slave justify giving up everything he/she values for one person? I'm not trying to start a debate on whether or not a master would prevent you from contacting family and friends or all those other “impossible situations”. (Please spare us that!) I'm just talking about those who accept the possibilities of it when they enter a relationship where they have no control. If you agree to give up control over your social interactions, your career or your activistic pursuits is that truly an ethical choice? I'm just trying to throw out situations where ethics might come into play in m/s. I think most of us were raised with similar cultural ideals about relationships and social responsibility. When you apply some of those standards to the master slave dynamic they don't quite mesh. So how do you deal with this? Have some of you abandoned traditional ethics and morality in favor of something more in-tune with your sexual lifestyle? Do these ethical considerations keep you from fully exploring the boundaries of M/s? Perhaps you don't agonize over these decisions at all? Edited Thu 3 Apr 08, 6:14 PM by shyfox 3 Apr 08, 6:40 PM slave2master US, 2 yrs shyfox wrote: Ethical M/s? How ethical is your m/s relationship? When you talk about consensual slavery there are so many issues that crop up. For instance, changing the slave's personality and outward appearance in extreme ways. I've heard people say that as long as the slave is “better off” then they feel justified in that cause. I guess that depends on whose standards they are judging by; theirs or the slaves. Is it ethical to change a person's identity, because you can? I see a lot of slaves that start off in dire circumstances (homeless, abusive relations, etc) who are then swooped up by their dominant “savoir”. It might be a great way to take control over someone but is it truly ethical? How do you justify taking advantage of someone who is so clearly at a disadvantage? I think this also applies to anyone who has mental and physical issues that might impair them. How does a slave justify giving up everything he/she values for one person? I'm not trying to start a debate on whether or not a master would prevent you from contacting family and friends or all those other “impossible situations”. (Please spare us that!) I'm just talking about those who accept the possibilities of it when they enter a relationship where they have no control. If you agree to give up control over your social interactions, your career or your activistic pursuits is that truly an ethical choice? I'm just trying to throw out situations where ethics might come into play in m/s. I think most of us were raised with similar cultural ideals about relationships and social responsibility. When you apply some of those standards to the master slave dynamic they don't quite mesh. So how do you deal with this? Have some of you abandoned traditional ethics and morality in favor of something more in-tune with your sexual lifestyle? Do these ethical considerations keep you from fully exploring the boundaries of M/s? Perhaps you don't agonize over these decisions at all? In this slave's opinion, before settling on a Master, it is important to have open and honest communication. Being a slave to one Master could embody an entirely different set of expectations as opposed to another Master. Being a slave does not mean giving up everything one believes in. i still have strong beliefs about many different things. If my Master required something of me that was very much against my ethical boundaries, i know Him well enough to know that He would be willing to sit down and listen to my concerns. i also know Him well enough to know that He would not feel any less of a Master if He changed His mind based on my concern. If He did insist i do what He says, then the decision would be mine...to obey or suffer the consequences of my disobedience. Yes, that could mean being released. And it would be a very difficult decision on my part to disobey. Hopefully, this situation never happens. 3 Apr 08, 7:08 PM Chastiser UK, 8 yrs Y! fortunatly, in my relationships, i set the moral tone and the ethics so its not really an issue. Mike Let Me unchain your mind and your sexuality will follow. Taking part in the Macmillan 4x4 charity event in 2008. please donate to this http://www.justgiving.com/teameuropcar 3 Apr 08, 7:57 PM shyfox 12 mths slave2master wrote: In this slave's opinion, before settling on a Master, it is important to have open and honest communication. Being a slave to one Master could embody an entirely different set of expectations as opposed to another Master. Being a slave does not mean giving up everything one believes in. i still have strong beliefs about many different things. If my Master required something of me that was very much against my ethical boundaries, i know Him well enough to know that He would be willing to sit down and listen to my concerns. i also know Him well enough to know that He would not feel any less of a Master if He changed His mind based on my concern. If He did insist i do what He says, then the decision would be mine...to obey or suffer the consequences of my disobedience. Yes, that could mean being released. And it would be a very difficult decision on my part to disobey. Hopefully, this situation never happens. Well this is nice but it doesn't really answer the question. It actually avoids answering the question by giving standard bdsm "wisdom". If you are saying that you never have to deal with ethical dilemmas because you go to great lengths to avoid them I find that somewhat hard to believe. Especially in an m/s relationship. 3 Apr 08, 7:58 PM shyfox 12 mths Chastiser wrote: fortunatly, in my relationships, i set the moral tone and the ethics so its not really an issue. Mike Why isn't it an issue? If you set the ethics and moral how do you do it? You have never had to struggle over any issues related to owning another human being? 3 Apr 08, 8:53 PM Mistress_Tiara UK, 2 yrs shyfox wrote: I see a lot of slaves that start off in dire circumstances (homeless, abusive relations, etc) who are then swooped up by their dominant “savoir”. It might be a great way to take control over someone but is it truly ethical? How do you justify taking advantage of someone who is so clearly at a disadvantage? I think this also applies to anyone who has mental and physical issues that might impair them. I have often thought about this part of your question, and I believe there are people on the scene who do this kind of thing tactically, which troubles Me greatly. Now, if the submissive happens to stumble across a wonderful kind caring saviour type then it can work out wonderfully - but there are many examples of corrupt individuals exploiting emotionally or mentally vulnerable submissives and this does trouble Me when I see it. ~ *Mistress Tiara* 3 Apr 08, 10:17 PM Chastiser UK, 8 yrs Y! shyfox wrote: Chastiser wrote: fortunatly, in my relationships, i set the moral tone and the ethics so its not really an issue. Mike Why isn't it an issue? If you set the ethics and moral how do you do it? You have never had to struggle over any issues related to owning another human being? i decide what it is that i want, and then do it. no, why should i have to struggle over something that is part of my nature? Mike Let Me unchain your mind and your sexuality will follow. Taking part in the Macmillan 4x4 charity event in 2008. please donate to this http://www.justgiving.com/teameuropcar 3 Apr 08, 10:34 PM Masters_LittleKitten US(TX), 23 mths I do not find myself with the same ethical standards as many around me, as I do not find an issue with being owned by another person because it is my choice to do so. Others find it unethical to be a homosexual but people choose to live as such. I choose to not follow the Christian path which some find unethical (no offense to those that do choose this), and others choose to be polygamists. There are many things society tries to instill in us as being unethical, but one has to look past what other feel, and look within themselves to find what is right to them. It should not matter with others think is ethical or unethical. What matters is what you feel is ethical for you. This means taking a long hard look at those things that you were taught were ethical though life, and finding why you feel it is or is not that way for you. I will try to explain now my thought process of why it is not unethical. To me I first questioned why is it ethical and I come up with because this is what make me happy. This is what makes my life feels fulfilling and gets me out of bed each day. It is the choice I made, and I feel free to be myself, where in other 'nilla relationships I felt I had to be someone else. I am sure I can come up with a dozen more reasons, but I will not bore you with all of them. I know those are not ethical reasons but personal feelings and such, but I feel that ones personal feeling towards a subject affects how ethical they feel it is. If it does not hurt or harm any one else, then why should I feel it is wrong if its my choice to live this way? If its what makes me happy? The next question I would ask myself is why is it considered unethical. Because society says it is? Nope not good enough since it gives no valid reasons why its really wrong other then personal bias. I should be able to make all my own decisions (look there is another thing society says. Yay for free will!). Everyone comes with the right to be free. So if some days I do not feel like getting up to make breakfast or go to the store, then that is my right. Just like choosing how to live my life is my right. I hope this helps answer your questions but this is only how I see it though my eye. If I have offended anyone with my personal feeling I do apologize. My question for you is why is it unethical? Master's Kitten Edited 3 Apr 08, 10:36 PM by Masters_LittleKitten 3 Apr 08, 10:50 PM shyfox 12 mths Mistress_Tiara wrote: I have often thought about this part of your question, and I believe there are people on the scene who do this kind of thing tactically, which troubles Me greatly. Now, if the submissive happens to stumble across a wonderful kind caring saviour type then it can work out wonderfully - but there are many examples of corrupt individuals exploiting emotionally or mentally vulnerable submissives and this does trouble Me when I see it. Yes I wonder about that when I see it. Even the most caring benevolent Dom is basically benefiting from the misfortune of their slave. In the end, if no one is hurt then I'd say it's a win. 3 Apr 08, 11:18 PM shyfox 12 mths Masters_LittleKitten wrote: I do not find myself with the same ethical standards as many around me, as I do not find an issue with being owned by another person because it is my choice to do so. Others find it unethical to be a homosexual but people choose to live as such. I choose to not follow the Christian path which some find unethical (no offense to those that do choose this), and others choose to be polygamists. There are many things society tries to instill in us as being unethical, but one has to look past what other feel, and look within themselves to find what is right to them. It should not matter with others think is ethical or unethical. What matters is what you feel is ethical for you. This means taking a long hard look at those things that you were taught were ethical though life, and finding why you feel it is or is not that way for you. I will try to explain now my thought process of why it is not unethical. To me I first questioned why is it ethical and I come up with because this is what make me happy. This is what makes my life feels fulfilling and gets me out of bed each day. It is the choice I made, and I feel free to be myself, where in other 'nilla relationships I felt I had to be someone else. I am sure I can come up with a dozen more reasons, but I will not bore you with all of them. I know those are not ethical reasons but personal feelings and such, but I feel that ones personal feeling towards a subject affects how ethical they feel it is. If it does not hurt or harm any one else, then why should I feel it is wrong if its my choice to live this way? If its what makes me happy? The next question I would ask myself is why is it considered unethical. Because society says it is? Nope not good enough since it gives no valid reasons why its really wrong other then personal bias. I should be able to make all my own decisions (look there is another thing society says. Yay for free will!). Everyone comes with the right to be free. So if some days I do not feel like getting up to make breakfast or go to the store, then that is my right. Just like choosing how to live my life is my right. I hope this helps answer your questions but this is only how I see it though my eye. If I have offended anyone with my personal feeling I do apologize. My question for you is why is it unethical? Personally, I don't believe all of it is unethical. Some of it might be borderline. No matter what type of upbringing you have there are certain society norms that we were all exposed to. Things like: it's wrong to hit/hurt others, selfishness is wrong, protect the weak, power shouldn't be abused, certain sexual acts are considered obscene...etc. Combine that with certain religious beliefs and you have a lot of grounds on which to claim m/s as unethical. As someone who is interested in a lot of the more extreme aspects of m/s I have struggled with this idea a lot. My upbringing was neither strictly religious nor amoral but somewhere in between. It makes me wonder how others deal with these concepts enough to enjoy their chosen relationships. If the general consensus among kinky folk is more like what you and chastiser have stated then it's almost socipathic reasoning. I'm not saying that you are sociopaths. It just seems like you have had to completely remove this aspect of your life from laws and mores of normal society in order to enjoy it. 3 Apr 08, 11:32 PM Rogers_Deb0rah UK, 7 yrs Warning, long post! The problem with any ethical debate is justification and attack. We are here because we believe in the basic ethics that you say we can't use as such to defend what we do, how and why we do what we do. Ethics try and make what is nature (and second nature to us) into a science and look at what human duty should and shouldn't be. We, I guess, as a body of people who believe that the duty we wish to follow is that of ourselves and by following that it may well include submitting to another or controlling another. The reason this basic act of choice and morality comes into play well is that basic ethics look at a body of rules of duty (if you look up any definition) and Ms has lots of guidelines for those wish to participate within it that people should follow as a matter of safety and sensibility. There are also unwritten rules and agreement amongst those here and within groups of those practising Ms! This isn't a science though and as the system of principles and rules concerning duty, whether true or false are actually ours to make, then they are just that ... ours. You can try and set out a list of rules of practice in respect to a single class of human actions. I feel our Ms society does that in that it has a code of conduct and seeks to set a definition that works for those involved in what we do and tries to demonstrate a set of behaviours that take care of all those involved. So let's look at the specifics. How ethical is my Ms relationship? Depends who is looking I guess. It is to me and surely that's all that matters? It works well to benefit those involved and consequently those around us. You talk about changing appearance and personality, well I would argue that any couple that are together actually change each other all the time. It is a living organism that grows from 2 different people to make a couple. This organism just happens to have evolved to a hierarchical approach that is recognised by those within it. It's standard stuff, we tend to naturally choose those that compliment our needs and future existence as mates, genetics don't go out the window because the need for Ms is too great. I would also argue that you so make conscious choices before you decide to do this and that again it evolves with rules and a structure in place. Enslavement takes a long time to develop and gain the power you talk of. I would also state that most people are nowhere near that level, they may think they are but if the really tough choice was put to them it could easily break and often does, hence the lack of good long term Ms relationships. This is one of the only places I know that I recognise relationships and people I admire for their ability to manage through thick and thin and develop, I sure as hell personally fail 99.9% of the time. Anyone who is rescued from an incredibly difficult circumstance would be better off, good for them. I am not taken advantage of, neither am I at a disadvantage intellectually or emotionally. It was a choice I made weighing up the pros and cons and realising that to be happy, this was it! Who is to say who is the saviour and the saved? To meet and develop a good Ms relationship can't work as a one way system or it will fail. The one way has to be followed and actively led. You assume that someone gives up all they value for just one person? Maybe so, but again maybe so in any relationship. Plenty of partners state a preference and the partner does as suggested. The difference here is at least you go in with both eyes open and willing to put the blindfold on enabling you to see clearer then you have done previously! I do not have to justify anything I do to anyone, unless they matter in my life surely? I have just had to justify the fact that I don't fancy giving up plastic bags in the village I live in, but we are going green and canvas bags are the way forward I am told by my local council ... Choice? Ethics? It is part of every day life, and again we go in with our eyes wide shut. It enables happiness and contentment, safety and a way for two people to be happy. The assumption is that you are taking advantage by taking control. Taking control is hard work. You can't sit on your back side inertly and assume some grand position that has a willing harem of 200 women all under your beck and call, it is a responsibility and once that responsibility is agreed upon, it contains ethics and morals, it is just a question of whos. You can have kids and have no ethics as is shown by most, more Ms relationships are discussed fully then an accidental pregnancy and its consequences ever are. The assumption is also that once that happens you automatically give up all you list. Maybe you were wanted because of your beliefs, goals, aspirations and ability and that will be nurtured therefore that's damned ethical. Lots of people lose their life goals due to families or relationships. If you have someone actively making sure you achieve them, how fortunate. If as you say, most of us were raised with similar cultural ideals about relationships and social responsibility, to me that actually re enforces the standards of the master slave dynamic, it meshes totally. It is the perfect ideal of compatibility between two needs that compliment each other and balance two extreme needs that otherwise wouldn't be met, ethically ensuring that a fair percentage of us don't go around beating our heads against a wall of someone else's making. I cant see that abandoning traditional ethics and morality in favor of something more in-tune with your sexual lifestyle is a given. For those that possibly have, there are just as many who will not have as they are looking for a relationship that works within their own definitions of what is good and will enable them in life. There is also the assumption that this is sexually based as well which could potentially cloud ethics. I believe most of those in solid relationships would argue it is a meeting of minds and therefore quite ethically balanced as it has been reasoned out, dealt with, questioned and answered. Not just fucked over. Ethical considerations enable you to fully explore the boundaries of M/s because they create the boundary. So at times, we all may agonise over a decision, but it could be over the use of plastic bags or some greater ethical debate that some of us don't even give a passing minute to until we are called to give evidence. Phew, am I on a soap box tonight! Debs xx "Woman in her greatest perfection was made to serve and obey man." John Knox Next page