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	SD! : Web boards : Discipline : "Discipline Vs. Punishment" 1 2 3 Discipline Vs. Punishment (25) 18 May 08, 12:27 PM Saucy_Minx UK, 15 mths there is no safe word during punishment which is a direct result of wrongdoing by the slave/sub discipline is a reminder 18 May 08, 7:44 PM Sir4Ryco 2 yrs Weaponsaint wrote: Discipline is effective. Punishment is not. Punishment is used to retaliate against the slave/sub for some real or imagined infraction. Hi Weaponsaint, I take it by your statement that, in your opinion, every M/s dynamic that uses punishment is not effective. How long have you been in your current relationship? How many times have you been a master? I'm just wondering what expertise you have to make such an all encompassing statement. In my current relationship (13 1/2 years) I use both discipline and punishment. Discipline is for minor infractions and consists of some form of training (holding a position/ a task she doesn't enjoy/ humiliation training/ a stern talking to . . .) and punishment is for the more serious infractions (of course my punishings are probably not even play to some folks here) and I always use the rod. In our dynamic punishings are a very formal affair with discussions, a time to think while in bondage, the punishing itself, and then a ritualized forgiveness ceremony. The reason I find your all encompassing statement particularly narrow is because within my dynamic I'm not the actual reason my slave needs to be punished for a serious infraction (I'm not a sadist . . . I'm actually a masochist). Many slaves, mine included, have troubles forgiving themselves after they have done something particularly wrong. Certain slave personalities can't forgive themselves even after a talking to and discipline. The guilt of their actions and their inability to forgive themselves (even though they know they have been forgiven) for those actions causes slaves, like mine, to continue to beat themselves up and eventually the original problem becomes worse. The guilt moves them into more reactance because the slave, in her own mind, can't believe that she has actually been forgiven after such a small penance (religiously loaded, I know, but I think it's the best word . . . read up on a group called the Flagellators). Something in the slave's past or even perhaps genetics (or a combination of both) needs a proper and scary (modified for the particular slave) punishing in order to believe that they have actually been forgiven . . . that the sin or crime has been washed from them. I'm sure your relationship has it's own unique personality foibles but I think that you should allow for the fact that not every relationship (don't forget that there are billions of inter- human relationships occurring right now) is exactly like yours and that every person's requirements are not identical to yours. The M/s dynamic is as varied as any relationship dynamic and an all encompassing statement about the effectiveness of punishment in every relationship is perhaps making an assumption that you understand more than you actually do about everyone and their personal relationships. Everyone does not have to be like you to be right. Sir4Ryco Edited 18 May 08, 8:17 PM by Sir4Ryco 19 May 08, 5:10 AM tangie US(MI), 6 yrs There was a boundary that William did not want me to cross. I won't get into the details, but let's just say that it wasn't illegal, didn't involve drugs or alcohol, didn't involve other people, and actually hurt no one but myself. We had a lot of conversation about this. When I eventually crossed the boundary, we had a long conversation and he used the "punishment paddle" on me. He then told me that if I did X again, he didn't see how he could continue on as my dominant, and the relationship would be over. But when I had to go back to class (about a 6 hour drive from home), I was weak and could not stop myself from doing X. I just didn't tell him. Though throughout the course of the year, we had long conversations on how there was nothing I could do to end the relationship, I still couldn't tell him, and couldn't remind him that he said he'd end the relationship if I did X. Eventually (as these things go), I came clean to him. I needed him like I needed air to breathe, but not holding on to the relationship through lies or deception. If I was to be an honest slave to him, I could not withhold this information. I didn't know if I would be released or not, but I hoped to argue the point of our previous conversations about how I couldn't do anything that would force his hand. I anticipated the punishment paddle, figuring on being brave and seeing it through. Things didn't go the way I thought they'd go. When I told him, his face took on a cold, devastated expression that will more than likely haunt me for the rest of my life. There was no arguing the finer points of releasing. Nothing as inane as a punishment. My life, in that moment, changed forever. I realized that I'd put him in an untenable position, and in that moment the full weight of what I seemed about to lose came crashing down on me. I never did get the paddle. I longed for when life was that simple. He obviously didn't release me, but things were not the same after for a long time. I never did X again--but that became the least of my cares. I finally understood what it was I needed in my life, and walked the edge of losing it. It's a funny thing; the first time--the paddle--wasn't enough to stop me. The second time, when I consider all the ramifications of my actions, his response--which I see clearly in my minds eye as I type this--was powerful enough to stop me in my tracks, and I have not done X again. There has been no corporal punishment. Sometimes punishment only takes one so far. He has forgiven me, and refused to let me continue beating myself up (and boy how I want to!). My response has been to become more deeply his than ever. If he had merely caused physical bruises--well, they fade. He could have beat me bloody--I'd heal. But his palpable and honest expression of disappointment--ah. Now there was punishment I will have to live with. It has become a powerful motivator, to hopefully never put that look on his face again Barbara (Edited for spellage and other gramatical boo boos) ...For many roses have blossomed here in this garden, But no one has plucked the rose without the stab of a thorn. ~Hafiz of Shiraz Edited 19 May 08, 5:18 AM by tangie 20 May 08, 10:29 AM All_American_Heretic US, 8 mths Did you really find it necessary to write a novel just to ask a few simple questions? I have seen enough candyassed "masters" doling out punishment as if it is the cornerstone of the master/slave relationship. I have seen punishment destroy those very same relationships. In the simplest terms- punishment is worthless as discipline is essential. Edited 20 May 08, 10:37 AM by All_American_Heretic 20 May 08, 11:12 AM Admin 11 yrs Weaponsaint wrote: Did you really find it necessary to write a novel just to ask a few simple questions? No one's forcing you to read posts... Regards, Tanos, as Admin www.seekdiscipline.com 20 May 08, 1:48 PM 403-930-468 US(VA), 9 mths Weaponsaint As a submissive of 6 or 7 years and about 4 or more of that r/t let me just say i don't see how you got a clue. Maybe i'm wrong, but i can push a Dom to such a point there is no choice, but to punish and i don't do all it on perpuse. R/T is not like the easy road you seem to think it is and yes some do need punishment and some like me do have a hard time forgiven themselves. i could take a Dom like you and make you think you are Domming me all the while your being Dommed by me and just don't know it and not bragging i've done just that to Doms who thought they knew what they were doing. i know you have the right to like or dislike everything and anything you like, but truly man i don't see what your problem is eccept i believe you have no Dom skills, but who am i to judge, but that is my feelings. i base this on my life as a r/t sub/slave, so maybe i am not correct about you, but i feel i am, so why don't you just open your eyes and maybe your learn something. tracey Master reads and approves all posts she writes and may edit or delete if possible any post she writes, she has no secrets from her Master and is totally honest with Him and has no need to lie to her Master. Like wise her Master Has seen her profile and approved it. Edited 20 May 08, 1:51 PM by 403-930-468 20 May 08, 9:20 PM All_American_Heretic US, 8 mths 403-930-468 wrote: Weaponsaint As a submissive of 6 or 7 years and about 4 or more of that r/t let me just say i don't see how you got a clue. Maybe i'm wrong, but i can push a Dom to such a point there is no choice, but to punish and i don't do all it on perpuse. R/T is not like the easy road you seem to think it is and yes some do need punishment and some like me do have a hard time forgiven themselves. i could take a Dom like you and make you think you are Domming me all the while your being Dommed by me and just don't know it and not bragging i've done just that to Doms who thought they knew what they were doing. i know you have the right to like or dislike everything and anything you like, but truly man i don't see what your problem is eccept i believe you have no Dom skills, but who am i to judge, but that is my feelings. i base this on my life as a r/t sub/slave, so maybe i am not correct about you, but i feel i am, so why don't you just open your eyes and maybe your learn something. tracey Keep telling yourself that, sub. Someday you just might believe it. 21 May 08, 1:31 AM Sir4Ryco 2 yrs Weaponsaint wrote: Did you really find it necessary to write a novel just to ask a few simple questions? I have seen enough candyassed "masters" doling out punishment as if it is the cornerstone of the master/slave relationship. I have seen punishment destroy those very same relationships. In the simplest terms- punishment is worthless as discipline is essential. Hi Weaponsaint, If my response was a novel to you I'm probably safe in assuming that you don't read much and that you don't read critically. If you had bothered to read the "novel" you would have noticed that it was a detailed response, refuting your brief and poorly supported 'diktat' about punishment, written from the perspective of someone who is in a long term and successful 24/7 M/s relationship. No matter how many times a "natural dominant" like you repeats a statement about M/s it doesn't, for some odd reason, become instant fact to the world at large or to this forum. You didn't even bother to answer the questions at the beginning of my thread so I have no idea about your level of experience and you didn't offer any worthwhile intellectual support for your original theory/law about punishment. If, in your view, my response was too long I must admit that I found yours too short. Sir4Ryco P.S. I suggest that you stop all the posturing. 21 May 08, 3:12 AM Sir_GreyBear76tm US(AZ), 8 mths Discipline is required for most subs that have issues with being who they are and punishment sometimes follow but Just accept it that is why Y/your a sub . Enjoy what is giving to Y/you ! §ir Grey Bear ™† 21 May 08, 3:17 AM Sir_Sebastian1954 US(NY), 8 mths Discipline is giving for what needs to be addressed . Punishment is taken for being a Sub. and Respect is Given when Earned take what is Y/yours and Enjoy the O/outcome ! §ir Ğaddy §ebastian© Next page