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	SD! : Web boards : IE Theory : "Subspace: Evidence and Theory" Subspace: Evidence and Theory (10) Wed 14 May 08, 2:27 PM Yarakot 3 yrs I generally stay out of the subspace discussions because it seems to me that subspace doesn't have a good, agreed-upon description and I don't see that we have any way to analyze it without that. My assumption is that it is actually a mosaic of different mental states all being given the same name. Recently, ~Shadow underwent testing for epilepsy and she reports that her subspace showed up one the EEG monitors. She describes it in her thread in Off-Topic like this: drknsshadow wrote: Master and I found out that sub-space shows up on the EEG monitors. He has a few vocal triggers that will drop me into that space quickly and used them several times a day. I thought it was amuseing because He could see me getting upset/panicy and He'd growl at me and I'd drop into sub-space. I'd love to hear what the Dr's thought about it when they looked at the EEG tapes. ~Shadow What is the EEG actually detecting here? Is there a theory of mind that explains subspace? Has there been any research into the phenomena (or similar phenomena)? Any pointers? Michael in another thread in Off-Topic discussed the recent literature on endorphin research into runner's high. Michael_X wrote: Whilst there is much speculation about SM and endorphins such that it is often portrayed as accepted fact the reality is different. As far as I am aware no one has done the sort of studies required to substantiate such speculation. In a parallel situation, runner's high, another area where there has long been thought to be a link, such has recently been demonstrated very nicely. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/health/nutriti... http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abs... Endorphin intoxication is one of many things people theorize is responsible for subspace. My guess is that this doesn't mesh with ~Shadow's experience. Any thoughts? References? Discussion? Carolyn P.S. Welcome back ~Shadow and thanks for such a fascinating report on your testing. And the trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more. --Erica Jong Edited Wed 14 May 08, 2:59 PM by Yarakot 14 May 08, 2:50 PM Mistress_Tiara UK, 2 yrs Yarakot wrote: Endorphin intoxication is one of many things people theorize is responsible for subspace. My guess is that this doesn't mesh with ~Shadow's experience. Any thoughts? References? Discussion? I concur that different people are probably refering to different phenomena. I am sure endorphin intoxication is one aspect, but like shadow's reprorted drop to her Masters verbal triggers I'm sure there are plenty of other manifestations. My boy for example sometimes spaces on pain, and often experiences extremes of pain, but reports that his most powerful ever subspace state was achieved the first time I ever made him crawl which was in public. Obviously this instance is psychological and/ or a response to other chemical triggers brought about by humiliation and making what was then a huge leap in his experiences. I therefore believe that endorphin rushes are only part of the story. A fascinating thread Carolyn, thanks. *~*Mistress Tiara*~* 15 May 08, 12:32 AM godless US(TX), 21 mths Y! Yarakot wrote: Recently, ~Shadow underwent testing for epilepsy and she reports that her subspace showed up one the EEG monitors. She describes it in her thread in Off-Topic like this: drknsshadow wrote: Master and I found out that sub-space shows up on the EEG monitors. He has a few vocal triggers that will drop me into that space quickly and used them several times a day. I thought it was amuseing because He could see me getting upset/panicy and He'd growl at me and I'd drop into sub-space. I'd love to hear what the Dr's thought about it when they looked at the EEG tapes. ~Shadow What is the EEG actually detecting here? Is there a theory of mind that explains subspace? Has there been any research into the phenomena (or similar phenomena)? Any pointers? Michael in another thread in Off-Topic discussed the recent literature on endorphin research into runner's high. Michael_X wrote: Whilst there is much speculation about SM and endorphins such that it is often portrayed as accepted fact the reality is different. As far as I am aware no one has done the sort of studies required to substantiate such speculation. In a parallel situation, runner's high, another area where there has long been thought to be a link, such has recently been demonstrated very nicely. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/health/nutriti... http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abs... Endorphin intoxication is one of many things people theorize is responsible for subspace. My guess is that this doesn't mesh with ~Shadow's experience. Hi Carolyn, I don't see why the eeg and the "endorphin rush" are not necessarily one and the same. First of all, Shadow did not state what happened on her eeg - simply that the result was a noticeable change. It may have been that her brain was more active or less active, and the activity could have only applied to certain places. Endorphins on the other hand, are also directly invoved in the firing and inhibition of firing of neurons. Endorphin might not be the most correct word (that is, subspace might not be endorphins specifically, but another endogenous neurotransmitter/neuromodulator), but there is the possibility that it is in fact endorphins. It may even *probably* be endorphins, seeing as most descriptions are along the lines of "happy floaty feelings while the fact that he's beating me senseless is far far from my mind." Endorphins are literally endogenous morphine-like chemicals, and are known to be released as a person is feeling intense pain or other trauma. I didn't have quite the time to look up references - this is just my immediate reaction to the question coupled with just completing a semester of neurobiology last week (yay!). "You don't love a girl because she's beautiful. You love a girl because she sings a song that only you can understand" - L.J Smith "Dark World" 15 May 08, 12:37 AM 842-117-802 CA, 9 mths I can't say for certain, as I've only experienced subspace perhaps 2 or 3 times (each time was a play session with my former owner) and I remember a feeling of floating and just sheer joy. I also get a similar feeling--that of floating--when I'm dropping off to sleep, though in that case, it is panicking. Now, I seem to recall reading that that "floating" feeling is part of a form of sleep paralysis. This indicates that it might be a matter of brain wave alteration, which potentially could be triggered by endorphin release. Just my two cents' worth. Under consideration to Master Latrans 15 May 08, 5:09 PM Zeemee DE, 3 yrs There seem to be two things that people refer to as subspace. One is usually described to be brought about by intense or prolonged sensation play. I can easily imagine the endorphin theory being (at least a partial) explanation for it (even though I must admit, I am speculating). The other subspace experience seems to be more psychologically triggered, like Shadow describes it. I wonder if the two are the same thing on a brain and neurochemical level, or not. 17 May 08, 7:43 AM Zarhans_pet US, 11 mths Zeemee wrote: There seem to be two things that people refer to as subspace. One is usually described to be brought about by intense or prolonged sensation play. I can easily imagine the endorphin theory being (at least a partial) explanation for it (even though I must admit, I am speculating). The other subspace experience seems to be more psychologically triggered, like Shadow describes it. I wonder if the two are the same thing on a brain and neurochemical level, or not. This is posted with the permission of this slaves Master. this slave believes that both types trigger like reactions in slaves/subs, but from different sorts of internal reactions, for we all know that there are many internal reactions to even outside pressures or words that are said in any given situation. They can be also attributed to how well conditioned a slave is to what her/his Master/Mistress wants. On the endorphin topic, you can also break that down into the slaves reaction to either pleasure, or pain, or a combination of the two... the last causing in this slaves opinion a faster drop into the space for the slave or sub, and a more extended amount of time in that space(nothing compares at times to being fucked up the ass while being flogged across the back, while being tied down on hands and knees *shivers all over* ) As far as the psychological effect of humiliation, degradation, or just plain intimate knowledge that -this- person controls your very life and existance at times is a heady thing. On example might be, not being allowed to eat before your Master gives permission to. That hits really hard into a slaves psyche, showing her/him that beyond a shadow of a doubt, their Master or Mistress can control and will control when they feed themselves. Anotherwords, their very existance if that Master or Mistress chose to not allow them food. The same principle is applied constantly with many people here in the topic and practice of orgasm control, or any general control factors Masters or Mistresses place on their slaves. That is just this slaves opinion on the topic. Zarhan's pet Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail. - Ralph Waldo Emerson 17 May 08, 10:05 AM Michael_X UK, 3 yrs Hi all, I feel we should move back to Carolyn's first paragraph and the question within it. Equating a particular state of mind or consciousness with one or even a group of neurotransmitters, neuromodulators or hormones isn't really helpful even if it is common place (other examples vasopressin=pair bonding, testosterone=libido/aggression, lack of serotonin=depression, etc). There really isn't a one to one correspondence. Arguably the mental states that pain play produce are interesting but since subspace can be experienced without these and these can be experienced without subspace including masochistic fun may muddy the waters (feel free to refute this unsupported claim). A definition of what subspace is and isn't might actually be of use. Maybe we can produce a definition that includes only the essentials (with possibly a list of commonly associated non-essentials). Or possibly we will discover that not everyone agrees, perhaps there are multiple entities and we need more than one definition. So a few questions: 1. What are the necessary and sufficient factors that produce subspace? 2. What does a person in subspace experience? How does it alter or influence cognitive function, decision making, affect, mood, emotions, perception, memory, learning, motivation, drives, etc? 3. How does a person in subspace behave? 4. How does the above change with time for someone who regularly experiences it? 5. Are there gender differences, and if so what are these? 6. When did the term first come into use, who coined it, what did it originally refer to? 7. What else should we be asking, looking at, looking for? Regards, Michael 17 May 08, 3:52 PM drknsshadow 3 yrs First thanks for teh memo that pointed me to this thread. For me subspace is a trancelike state, on the EEG all of the activity went from spiky huge marks to almost a flatline on all the EEG leads. The first time it happened we had a nurse show up to check on me and the EEG equipment. Of course a new person walking in ment that Master growled again (since Dr's and Nurses scare teh fire out of me) and it went from lots of spiky waves on the EEG to flatline again. I'm probly not describing it very well since I was seeing things through either a haze of fear or a haze of trance state. I'll see if Master will describe what teh readings looked like. ~Shadow I am Master's valuable property. I belong to Ebonunicorn. 17 May 08, 6:54 PM 953-171-915 22 mths Michael_X wrote: So a few questions: 1. What are the necessary and sufficient factors that produce subspace? 2. What does a person in subspace experience? How does it alter or influence cognitive function, decision making, affect, mood, emotions, perception, memory, learning, motivation, drives, etc? 3. How does a person in subspace behave? 4. How does the above change with time for someone who regularly experiences it? 5. Are there gender differences, and if so what are these? 6. When did the term first come into use, who coined it, what did it originally refer to? 7. What else should we be asking, looking at, looking for? Regards, Michael Good afternoon Sir and A/all of TSR, This topic of supsace completely fascinates me. i do not have a medical degree or expertise to offer any type of factual medical responce to this thread. However, i know for me, subspace completely exists. Using Your questions, perhaps i might share with you about what i have experienced. my answers are based off my experiences only...not intended to state them in anyone else's case, but feel free to use them in comparison with your own experiences. i think it is important to understand how subspace is not always good. Please read below (if it pleases) and see a comparison of my wonderful experiences and one that was potentially bad that as it seems, could have gone very bad if i didn't have such a wonderful Master. 1. What are the necessary and sufficient factors that produce subspace? i believe there needs to initially be a calm and quiet setting. It is a gradual building of stimulus, for me: verbal, physical, sometimes pain, sometimes edge play. It seems like when subspace has come over me it started from this gradual building of stimulus to an extreme setting of either verbal or physical or both types of play. my Master has drawn me deeper and deeper into Him. Subspace hits when everything else around me is gone. i can only hear Him. i can only focus on Him. i have litterally found this strange place where nothing in the world could exist but Him. 2. What does a person in subspace experience? How does it alter or influence cognitive function, decision making, affect, mood, emotions, perception, memory, learning, motivation, drives, etc? i must say i am glad that i am comfortable with letting my Master hold my life in HIS hands. Wow, to fall into subspace with someone you can't fully trust could be dangerous. i know the end result of deeeeep subspace is me being very maliable and serene. i do not fully know what happens...the deeper parts of subspace i have been in i cannot remember...it is almost like a form of blacking out? yet i have been awake and safe? For my subspace experiences they have all been very delicious feeling except one time. It feels like a lovely form of internal intoxication...so sweet. i think my senses may be dulled during this. i am content. Now, there was one time specifically that i entered some kind of terrified place. The scene took a very very bad turn and i became frightened...and Master described me as hysterical. i was screaming for Him. Everything seemed dark? i couldn't seem to feel anything but scared. i felt like all of my senses were gone. The details are very obscure to me. i don't remember all of what happened. All i do remember is intense panic. It scared us both. He told me that He wrapped me up and brought me to the couch and snuggled me. He says he fed me a brownie and i drank some milk and cuddled. He said i calmed down and just rested curled up with Him. i do not remember this happening, including the brownie and milk! LMFAO That is strange!!! It is bizarre to be told you have done something and you don't believe it to have actually happened. i do believe Him, yet i was so gone and removed from myself i still want to dispute that i ate a brownie and darnk milk with Him. LOL Subspace since that scary time has been approached with a bit more caution. my Master (and i) enjoy the sweet subspace but that one experience that was terrifying. 3. How does a person in subspace behave? i think i am softer. i think i am quieter and calm. i think in subspace is am quite easy to mold and would do anything quite easily. 4. How does the above change with time for someone who regularly experiences it? i don't fully know yet. i think it may depend on the situation?? 5. Are there gender differences, and if so what are these? i am female. i don't know if that plays a factor or not. i do wonder that if simply a willingness to enter subspace facititates it maybe even more then gender??? Not sure either way. 6. When did the term first come into use, who coined it, what did it originally refer to? Don't know. 7. What else should we be asking, looking at, looking for? Considering the wonderful and magical experiences i have had with subspace and the one very dramatic and scary place, i think this is a topic that ALL D/s partners should be educated with. Thankfully, my Master was calm and was smart enough to check my breathing, my heart rate, my eyes, and to stop the scene and take good care of my needs. i fear the novice players who would not know what to do in this situation. So, in answer to your question, i think we should be continuing to discover subspace and work to make sure that it is handled with extreme care. **I have often wondered if there is anything similar for Dom/mes? Is there a true physical, mental, spiritual Dom/mespace that is similar to subsapce??? i do hope that i have given something of benefit to this thread. Thank you A/all. -His pet 19 Aug 08, 8:13 AM Malkinius US(IL), 2 yrs Greetings Michael.... Michael_X wrote: Hi all, I feel we should move back to Carolyn's first paragraph and the question within it. Equating a particular state of mind or consciousness with one or even a group of neurotransmitters, neuromodulators or hormones isn't really helpful even if it is common place (other examples vasopressin=pair bonding, testosterone=libido/aggression, lack of serotonin=depression, etc). There really isn't a one to one correspondence. <snip> Regards, Michael This interested me as I have been studying what I believe to be the biological and neuro-biological mechanisms that may be how enslavement happens in a human. I am neither a medical doctor nor a trained biologist, just someone who is starting to find things that both make sense and work in practice. I think (note how carefully I am hedging everything because I am not certain) that sub space is partly what most think it is, which is an endorphin flood in response to pain/intense stimuli or in one poster's case, a trained response...PLUS...a heave dose of dopamine with a drop in serotonin to decrease the neural firing rate which gives the mental floating feeling that when matched with the pain shutdown and feel good feelings from endorphins and dopamine produce what is called sub space. Call it...feel good drugs plus mental slowdown/shutdown and you have sub space. The enslavement effect, as I see it, works differently. It uses the oxytocin cascade to flood with both dopamine and serotonin which when combined with something in short term memory which is enslavement related forces what is in memory into long term memory and priority memory. This is something worth thinking about. It would be fascinating to have some sub being fully monitored with EEG/EKG/Etc. while they are taken into sub space. I don't think you could do it when in an MRI but maybe with someone trained to go into sub space on command. I think the observers would see some things they don't expect and no...I don't have a clue what that would be. The flatlining of the EEG makes a lot of sense with the descriptions of sub space and the one time I have personally observed it in another. I am certain that my thoughts above are incomplete but they may give someone else some ideas to work with. Be well.... Malkinius 24 Oct 08, 12:30 PM longfun BE, 2 mths Hello, I'm new here, but I thought "subspace" was a area where the sub goes through a barrier a pushed or in total concurrence overstepped border so to speak, the sub may even try to fight back get angry etc, , and when she finally lets go and endures, she is in subspace. I hear many talk about it put only a few really get there. I've seen it already but eventually the sub is totally broken(not many dare to go there),but once she/he this sub has picked up all the pieces she feels great. if not than never go there again. All the other things EEG, etc, sound more like hypnosis.. Clearly it is so linked to the way you build your s/m relation. One word and your off, it can be used even in sub space. In fact hypnosis/ suggestions is used all the time in a bdsm play, relation, it changes how the sub experiences the whole play. Have fun Longfun