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	SD! : Web boards : Practical IE : "Punishments" 1 2 3 Punishments (21) Sun 25 May 08, 12:02 PM dorine_van_Frank NL, 15 mths What kind of place is there in your TPE/IE relationship for punishments such as corporal punishments? I'm wondering, because so many people seem to need punishments or say you can't do without in a relationship like this. What do you think? As for us, we started our relationship having – amongst other things- something we call a ' punishment fetisch'. The whole idea about punishing and being punished worked in our relationship to feel the power, to feel under his control. Not only a ' play' or ' fun' thing, but very serious, very real. Still- imho- a fetish. Nothing wrong with that, by the way. I guess many people in D/s or M/s relationship share this ' fetish'. Although i haven't seen many people calling it a fetish like we do. Over time, this punishments disappeared. i changed as a slave, things got more internal, in my head. i wanted to obey, more than before (not only in theory, but i felt it more and more). Frank on the other hand grew as an Owner. He says that punishments can give a slave control. Some slaves or subs kind of ' demand' it from their Owners. Still, i'm far from perfect, i'm not doing everything right. But corporal punishments almost never take place. It just doesn't work like this anymore. For Frank and therefore for me. When i do something wrong, we talk about it, trying to find out what went wrong, what stood in the way. Even if he chooses to cane me after that (which sometimes, he does, ad random i suppose), it's not the kind of thing it used to be, it feels different. At first this confused me a great deal, like i wanted to get back to the start, the way things were first. Which is impossible, besides Frank does not desire this, nor would it work. my point is: punishments are not the only way to control someone or to feel controlled (because that need is still there). In fact, sometimes punishments do not work at all in an IE/TPE situation. At least, that's our experience. - i realize you could say that every human interaction is full of praise and punishment in a behavioristic kind of way, but i'm talking the more explicit bdsm-kind-of punishments here- i'm very interested in the experiences and views of other couples. dorine 28 May 08, 7:55 AM little_linnet US, 3 yrs Hi dorine, I was kind of surprised there weren't any replies to your post yet. It's an interesting one with a lot of good meat for discussion, I thought. Your experience mirrors mine. Corporal punishment hasn't been necessary since Mr Linnet really began working towards owning me. Something changed in his head, for him to start owning me, and whatever that change was also changed the way he saw control from something that's enforced with punishment, and adversarial, to ... something different. I've said here before that really and truly knowing he's unhappy with me -- that it's not an act he's putting on or part of some artificial structure -- is almost unbearable for me. It's anguish. Part of that, I think, is that he isn't really and truly unhappy with me often at all. He's very reasonable in his expectations of me, too reasonable I sometimes think. When a situation isn't to his liking he adjusts it, but being disappointed in me just isn't something that happens frequently. When it does happen it shakes my world because I know for a fact that I must have both failed to meet his reasonable, forgiving expectations, and failed to do it in a spectacular enough way to let him down substantially. Which is crushing. Is this your experience as well? I agree that a fetishistic structure of punishment often seems to be something a dominant feels obligated to provide to satisfy the submissive. I think maybe this is due to limited or incomplete understanding of other ways of really controlling someone, the ways that involve getting inside their head. A lot of people simply don't grasp that a person can be in control of another person without punishment, or the threat of punishment, being the backbone of that control. Krista No feminist thinks men and women are exactly the same. But what we reject is the notion that the difference between men and women is that men are human and women are objects. 28 May 08, 1:34 PM Mistress_Tiara UK, 2 yrs I very rarely use punishment in its true sense. I do use him very hard physically, but that isnt punishment, its usually training, discipline or simply for My pleasure. I would far rather have an obedient slave who strives to please Me and who is a pleasure to be with and enjoy, than some contrived system of 'punishment'. *~*Mistress Tiara*~* 28 May 08, 3:54 PM His_mAlice US(TX), 9 mths This hits me very close to home. When we first were dabbling in this lifestyle, it mostly WAS about punishment. Now that we have both grown, all i have to do is see discontentment in his eyes and it strikes me personally harder than any whip could sting. I feel as though i let down the one person on this world that protects, cares, and provides for me. We have moved away from punishments for infractions and moved toward punishments as reward, as discipline. And as a friend explained to me during this transition, I didn't understand at first. I couldn't see the forest for the trees. But they helped me to see that it wasn't punishment anymore, that all things physicial aren't punishment. That was a very hard thing for me to realize. And that is one thing that a very kind person on TSR helped me to see...and that is why i hope that those seasoned vetrans remain here with us. So that they can help give us our wings and see that we are flying, not crashing. mAlice "Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage" 28 May 08, 8:36 PM Red_Spark UK, 2 yrs Well, physical pain/discomfort can sometimes be an effective form of punishment, and sometimes not - it depends on the slave. I think that if a relationship is working well in the M/s sense, there will be less need for punishments as the slave will be more obedient. Although if the slave is not a masochist, physical pain could also be a form of motivation in discipline (rather than punishment per se). If certain processes or sensations are something that you both enjoy, no reason why 'role play' scenarios cannot be enjoyed in the M/s relationship as well, unconnected to 'real punishment'! 28 May 08, 8:58 PM dorine_van_Frank NL, 15 mths little_linnet wrote: Your experience mirrors mine. Corporal punishment hasn't been necessary since Mr Linnet really began working towards owning me. Something changed in his head, for him to start owning me, and whatever that change was also changed the way he saw control from something that's enforced with punishment, and adversarial, to ... something different. Yes, it's hard to put it into words...i think in Franks case it started as something he just felt wasn't right or appropriate anymore, rather than a rational decisionmaking process. And it took some time for something else to come up. little_linnet wrote: He's very reasonable in his expectations of me, too reasonable I sometimes think. lol, i can relate to that. i used to say things like: 'if i would be my Owner, i'd be much stricter with myself.' His answer: 'that's exactly why you aren't your own Owner.' little_linnet wrote: Is this your experience as well? Yes, something like it. if he's truly dissapointed, if i've really displeased him i feel absolutely lost. i think i changed from feeling inside: "make me please you" to "i desperately need to please you". i think this is a normal devellopment. Maybe, at the beginning, you need to feel his power more, more fysically. Maybe it is part of building the trust in the relationship. At least, that is how i would analyze my own process. dorine 28 May 08, 9:08 PM dorine_van_Frank NL, 15 mths Red_Spark wrote: I think that if a relationship is working well in the M/s sense, there will be less need for punishments as the slave will be more obedient. i'm not sure if this is how it worked for us, though. it just changed. i think at the beginning of our relationship 'punishmentsessions' weren't 'real' (as in the vanilla world) punishment. They were there to make visible his power over me, to make us feel the dynamic. Maybe some kind of acknowledgement of the relationship we had/have. Like a ritual. i still need that acknowledgement, but the way it appears has changed. i'm still thinking about how to put this for myself..let alone explain it to others, so this thread helps a lot. Red_Spark wrote: If certain processes or sensations are something that you both enjoy, no reason why 'role play' scenarios cannot be enjoyed in the M/s relationship as well, unconnected to 'real punishment'! True, but not so many people call this a fetish or an important ritual in itself. They mostly call it real punishment. in my view, it isn't and it is very confusing that we keep on calling it punishments. But it is more than role play. It can be an important reassurance for the dynamic. dorine Edited 28 May 08, 9:11 PM by dorine_van_Frank 29 May 08, 12:42 AM little_linnet US, 3 yrs Red_Spark wrote: If certain processes or sensations are something that you both enjoy, no reason why 'role play' scenarios cannot be enjoyed in the M/s relationship as well, unconnected to 'real punishment'! I wouldn't personally call it role play but Mr Linnet and I frequently play a "game" involving me running my smart mouth and him threatening (or administering) dire consequences. Both of us know perfectly well it's play although neither of us has said it in so many words. Sometimes the "consequences" are painful indeed but it becomes a game of sadism and masochism both of us get a purely positive charge from -- and sadism in this context isn't something I ever have to struggle with, for some reason. Krista No feminist thinks men and women are exactly the same. But what we reject is the notion that the difference between men and women is that men are human and women are objects. 29 May 08, 2:47 PM Saucy_Minx UK, 15 mths dorine_van_Frank wrote: i'm not sure if this is how it worked for us, though. it just changed. i think at the beginning of our relationship 'punishmentsessions' weren't 'real' (as in the vanilla world) punishment. They were there to make visible his power over me, to make us feel the dynamic. Maybe some kind of acknowledgement of the relationship we had/have. Like a ritual. i still need that acknowledgement, but the way it appears has changed. forgive me, but to me you are describing discipline 29 May 08, 7:47 PM Red_Spark UK, 2 yrs Yep, there is no reason why you cannot play as well as do serious 'lifestyle'-y stuff, and call it what you like, punishment or whatever.... as long as it works for you... 29 May 08, 10:04 PM the_Jedi_of_Gor US, 14 mths Y! I rarely use physical punishment with emma, exept maybe a pinch or something to mark the behavior and get her attention. She likes pain and I like to reserve it for when she is being good. She wants to please me and feels bad when she displeases me. She can be a bit of a brat at times but I think it just reinforces that behavior if I stop everything and pay attention to her with a formal punishment. I would rather just tell her I don't like the way she is acting and then go about my business. We use BDSM as play and have a lot of fun with that part of our relationship. I don't want to confuse this fun with actual punishment. I definately don't want her to act out and be rewarded with a scene and my undevided attention. We play hard and i think this works to reinforce our dynamics and lets her show me how much she trusts me. I like to guide her through positive reinforcement, fear of displeasing, and subtle mind tricks. She knows that everything I do will be in her best interest in the long run and therefore gives me all her trust and allows me to mold her as I see fit. Jake Sorry for the poor spelling and brief posts. I am usually driving or working..or both Next page