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	SD! : Web boards : IE Theory : ""Personality Split" - possible, or not?" "Personality Split" - possible, or not? (9) Mon 7 Jul 08, 6:58 AM bladeslave US(CA), 8 mths Y! Tonight, I was discussing with a Dom I am acquainted with, who is heavily into psychology, the possibility of a true personality split; completely separating, in this instance, the Independent from the Dependent. (Or dominant from submissive, whichever it is easier for you to comprehend). Now, in his theory, the least harmful way to do this is by false contradiction. But he thinks that before such a thing could take place, the brain would naturally either "solve the problem" or redefine the terms to validate the contradiction. I argued that in a TPE relationship it was possible for neither to happen, because the slave would take the words (naturally, in a "perfect situation" kind of scenario) of the Master/Mistress as law. However, he thinks this also just accomplished by the redefining of the terms used. Either way, we both think that it is nearly impossible to truly carve a piece of a persons personality completely away. That part of them is always there, we think, if only boxed away somewhere it might never be found again. My question is, do you agree? And if not, why? Are there stories to be had about success or failures, in either case? If so, I would love to hear them. Supposing that a piece of personality was boxed away never to be found again, by still a PART of them essentially, then is that the same thing as carving it completely out, in your opinion? Or because it is still fundamentally there, does it just mean they have been belief trained? I am greatly interested in all responses as this is a huge question for me! 7 Jul 08, 9:33 AM 315-076-759 UK, 7 mths I am a retired Registered Nurse and my experience has been that the personality cannot be "carved out" psychologically but can be destroyed or irrevocably damaged by physical changes to the brain either by injury or surgical intervention. However, personality can be ALTERED. Now the question is this: In a consenting relationship, does the personality change? I know from my own M/s experience that when I allowed myself to be enslaved I experienced a sense of release,- I would not be making my own decisions. But, in order to do that certain aspects of my personality were suppressed and others brought more to the fore. In Lady Mistress' presence I am 100% slave and my will/personality is held in check but as circumstances have changed and we live about 300 miles apart, I have to get on with my life and be the non-slave "me". But I carry the insignia so I do have that constant reminder of what I have undertaken. Yes, it is an interesting question. Slave/Sklavos 7 Jul 08, 12:11 PM anjuli UK, 18 mths Is what you are describing tho, sklavos, not that your personality as a free person was the unreal face of you, if you like. You experienced a sense of release as you were allowed to strip away the 'acceptable face' and persona you developed to deal with the world as you found it, and reveal your true longings and self to your M? Personality is something which I think it is accepted , is hardwired. I don't think you can change who you are - but you can change your behaviour and how you present yourself to others. Most of us with submissive tendencies have had to surpress them to deal with the outside world without being damaged. And of course our M's alter our behaviour and thinking as they see fit and are able. But who you are, is who you are. For me, I am now even more ME than ever before. Which paradoxically (if you view these things from the surface and without knowledge of what a good M can do) means I am stronger and more confident than ever. Why? Because the stressors that existed when I had to 'pretend' to be strong and in control are removed from me and my M stands just behind my shoulder at all times. Maintaining a persona that you feel is expected by society or acceptable to others around you is done at a cost to your soul, your peace. Hence, for a submissive, the release and the feeling of having come home when you let go and give control to your M. I believe, over time, what is changed is behaviour, attitudes, conditioning, beliefs, prejudices and so on. Not personality as it's not possible without undue stress (in a more biological sense) on the subject. What M/s does is to destroy the stress of false expectations, even the self-imposed ones, and allow the real self to grow and blossom. Attempting to change someone's personality or wall off something would create barriers and walls, create psychic stress in the s and be counterproductive to the M's goals, surely? J's efforts are expended in freeing and destroying barriers and harmful beliefs not creating new ones. I'm not sure I'm quite hitting the spot with what the OP wanted to ask - I read a couple of times but the essence stayed just out of reach for me, sorry - but perhaps we'll get there if we keep going and exploring. Hope it's not too wide of the mark tho. Perhaps you can come back bladeslave and expand a little more? anjuli Edited for clarity. ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Edited 7 Jul 08, 12:14 PM by anjuli 7 Jul 08, 6:51 PM bladeslave US(CA), 8 mths Y! Actually, anjuli, you were fairly close in your response. I too, believe that really a personality can not be rebuilt, only restructured. The question, I suppose I could put it a little more clearly at least, was mostly this: In a theoretical, "ideal" IE/TPE relationship, would it be possible for a large part of the s, the mask as you might say, to be completely discarded, and end up beyond their reach/use, possibly forever? And mostly, after that, I was just curious on how people defined the change in personality; personally I see it only as a restructuring where all the original building blocks are still there, yet the Dom I am acquainted to is fascinated by the idea of the "true split", or the one where all the original building blocks are no longer there, having been removed or otherwise damaged in some way. 7 Jul 08, 6:54 PM bladeslave US(CA), 8 mths Y! Alas I see something unclear in my last post, it should have been something more along the lines of "where not ALL of the original building blocks are there, some having been removed or damaged somehow" Also, another not as I reread this, I also agree with you, anjuli, that it is things such as behaviour that are really modified, as well as thought processes, but that the essential personality is the same. This however, becomes very complicated when one wonders about the theoretical possibilities of such things. However, even in split personalities, the one, original personality is still there, even if fragmented and overly developed in different aspects per personality. That alone makes me think that complete removal of a natural aspect of personality would be impossible.... it's all so fascinating. 8 Jul 08, 7:51 PM 315-076-759 UK, 7 mths anjuli wrote: You experienced a sense of release as you were allowed to strip away the 'acceptable face' and persona you developed to deal with the world as you found it, and reveal your true longings and self to your M? I don't think you can change who you are - but you can change your behaviour and how you present yourself to others. Most of us with submissive tendencies have had to surpress them to deal with the outside world without being damaged. But who you are, is who you are. Maintaining a persona that you feel is expected by society or acceptable to others around you is done at a cost to your soul, your peace. Hence, for a submissive, the release and the feeling of having come home when you let go and give control to your M. I believe,.... what is changed is behaviour, attitudes, conditioning, beliefs, prejudices and so on. Not personality...... anjuli Edited for clarity. Hi anjuli, I think you're right. It IS knowing who you really are and above all, accepting it. I remember saying to Lady Mistress at some point, "I think I've been a slave all my life." Her reply was to the effect that having become a real slave I can now see that. Time to stop pretending. Thank you for highlighting what should have been obvious. Slave/Sklavos 10 Jul 08, 6:46 AM 238-864-563 US(CA), 12 mths anjuli wrote: Portions deleted: Most of us with submissive tendencies have had to surpress them to deal with the outside world without being damaged. And of course our M's alter our behaviour and thinking as they see fit and are able. But who you are, is who you are. For me, I am now even more ME than ever before. Which paradoxically (if you view these things from the surface and without knowledge of what a good M can do) means I am stronger and more confident than ever. Why? Because the stressors that existed when I had to 'pretend' to be strong and in control are removed from me and my M stands just behind my shoulder at all times. Maintaining a persona that you feel is expected by society or acceptable to others around you is done at a cost to your soul, your peace. Hence, for a submissive, the release and the feeling of having come home when you let go and give control to your M. I believe, over time, what is changed is behaviour, attitudes, conditioning, beliefs, prejudices and so on. Not personality as it's not possible without undue stress (in a more biological sense) on the subject. What M/s does is to destroy the stress of false expectations, even the self-imposed ones, and allow the real self to grow and blossom. Yes, indeed: The sense of peace with myself... the stress of maintaining a persona in society... i just wish to say that this is a very well expressed description of how i have felt when owned. Well put. Thank you. 238-864-563 Edited 10 Jul 08, 6:47 AM by 238-864-563 11 Jul 08, 6:08 AM 662-935-655 US, 2 yrs bladeslave wrote: "Personality Split" - possible, or not? Tonight, I was discussing with a Dom I am acquainted with, who is heavily into psychology, the possibility of a true personality split; completely separating, in this instance, the Independent from the Dependent. (Or dominant from submissive, whichever it is easier for you to comprehend). Now, in his theory, the least harmful way to do this is by false contradiction. But he thinks that before such a thing could take place, the brain would naturally either "solve the problem" or redefine the terms to validate the contradiction. I argued that in a TPE relationship it was possible for neither to happen, because the slave would take the words (naturally, in a "perfect situation" kind of scenario) of the Master/Mistress as law. However, he thinks this also just accomplished by the redefining of the terms used. Either way, we both think that it is nearly impossible to truly carve a piece of a persons personality completely away. That part of them is always there, we think, if only boxed away somewhere it might never be found again. My question is, do you agree? And if not, why? Are there stories to be had about success or failures, in either case? If so, I would love to hear them. Supposing that a piece of personality was boxed away never to be found again, by still a PART of them essentially, then is that the same thing as carving it completely out, in your opinion? Or because it is still fundamentally there, does it just mean they have been belief trained? I am greatly interested in all responses as this is a huge question for me! i know this can happen as it is what happened to me when Master and i were first married and W/we briefly tried some play - only it brought up abuse issues and split off the real bitch i had to be to survive in those (multiple) relationships. This included 3 prior marriages, but even more parental abuse which she still denies from my mom and also ongoing bullying at school including physical violence in all of the above as well as extreme verbal abuse. THAT is why it took 10 years before i was ready to not only try again but do M/s 24/7 with Him as our 10th anniversary gift - after a LOT of therapy. This was something He could not have guessed at as i didn't know i was abused - i thought everyone went through that kind of stuff growing up and in marriage. i believed it to be normal. Raven Kaldera, a Master on here has a wonderful site on His web page - that i unfortunately have lost the URL or whatever it's called - the thing you click on to get there - out of my book marks and on it is a section called BROKEN TOYS about folks in M/s dealing with mental illness - i only wish Master had had this site to help Him deal with how i was while i was going through therapy for this. Fortunately, being a retired substance abuse counselor and having AA and other support groups to sustain me (Survivors of Incest Anonymous - Incest being defined as child sexual abuse by family or someone a P/person as a C/child would expect to be able to trust like family. In my case it was that - a man i met via neighbors who were like a 2d family to me) i was able to fully cooperate with the treatment and get past it, integrate, as far as i wished, etc. but it normally takes much longer than the 8 or so years i went through it. also Master having a PhD. in religion and also in a course of study called "metaphysics" which was basically theoretical psychology with Him specializing in Hypnosis was as supportive as i allowed Him to be at the time. But not everyone has that and gets well. that's why it's good to know the P/people you play with very well and not just ask T/them if they are abuse survivors but ask them if specific acts were ever perpetrated against T/them. This is often exactly how multiples form - the main personality goes elsewhere doing the abuse. also traditional and non-tradisional shamanism can be helpful in recovering pieces of the soul lost due to abuse that caused the multiples to split in some cases. Or the practice of "recapturing the sparks" used by Kabbalists, both modern and ancient, both mystical and those using Kabbalah as High Ceremonial Magick in either a Judeao-Christian sense or in a Magickal even Wiccan/NeoPagan sense or both of these. HOWEVER, i must also add that a split is not always a bad thing - in fact my "inner child" part of me became a function of our "play" in lifestyle, as long as i could swap back to my original "adult" or as "adult" as i ever care to be., (grin) so important. i don't know if there is research on this but i believe that disassociative disorders - what is the new name at least in the states, via DSM - can be a pleasant and even beneficial experience in some ways, IF and only IF the main persona remains in control. By that i mean aware and able to switch back easily - on command by Master, but in his/her own right if necessary, esp.in emergency or trauma situations. For me that meant the Main Persona had to be aware of what was going on, even if from a distance - no time lapses where i didn't remember what i'd said and done. And for a multiple, that can take place without drinking or drugs being involved. When booze and drugs come into the picture, it may not be a true "multiple personality" case, but just a "black out" in which a person continues to semi-function and do actions in the "real" world, but doesn't remember it the next day. If it occurs during drinking - even "social" - or even during "recreational" drug use with Pot, which can be laced with other things, then it can't be diagnosed as true multiples until the I/individual in question sobers up - or so i was taught. Now that's just my idea - not even a working hypothesis yet much less a viable scientific theory or law. but it is my experience only, so take it only as that. and intentional trying to split a person's personality by a P/person who is not professionally trained should be avoided to my mind. i don't think is safe even in extreme play without intense training on how to do so - and i'm talking PhD level or at least M.S.W. in Psychotherapy or Psychatry. Otherwise it could result in permanent or long term mental illness, damaging One's property. Of course if it is done, it is my not-so-humble opinion that it must be done by F/folks who know what T/they are doing - studying it from a psychological vantage point at depth and with the best training in Hypnosis to help re-align the personality if need be, Perhaps via intensive Mentoring of the Master/Mistress in question by one with the professional training - maybe Lord Tanos could incorporate something like this in the training He sponsors or some such. esp. if such a one is to be released. And only to be attempted, again my opinion, if such a person as to be split is extremely stable and secure in themselves. But overall, i'd say it's mega-dangerous and could easily result in permanent damage and mental illness. Again, i am not a trained psychiatrist or psychotherapist JUST a retired alkie/junkie counselor which requires no training in my state - although i chose to get an associates degree and do have some training more than was reequired when i practiced in this field CHECK OUT WHAT i SAY WITH ONE OF THOSE KINK-FRIENDLY COUNSELORS, as suggested in another thread, BEFORE TRYING THIS ON ANYONE. i am N O T, repeat N O T - an expert in this area. But i believe it because i've seen the damage that can be done to traumatized clients who have had counselors not specially trained in abuse try to regress folks to bring back memories of abuse or other trauma that did not occur, etc. - for ex. i had it attempted on me to insist to me in a hypnotic state that my late Father, may He also rest in peace, whom i adored and who was so good to me, must also have sexually or at least violently abused me but i just didn't remember it. More receent studies show that traumatized and abused people are not likely to repress the memories of it, but relive it over and over - but may not define it as abuse or trauma. (sometimes in nightmares) This is highly debated even in the professional community, i must add to be fair. But the technique is under questioning, is my point. At one point they had me convinced that this dear man who wouldn't hurt a fly or my mom at her nastiest had done this to me i have come to strongly question SOME "repressed" memories brought forth under hypnosis as a result of having experienced this, although i believe it is rarer than some claim. (every perpetrator of crime, esp. violent crime including sexual claims to be innocent, so it is hard to recognize when someone truly is innocent in the rare exception to that rule) Note trauma resulting in split may not be due to abuse or even War, it can also be due to something as 'simple' as a severe car accident, esp. if there was physical injury resulting, for ex. as usual, just some thoughts - take what applies and ignore the rest (Grin) i recognize this is a highly controversial subject - esp. among the "experts" and remember what Master sometimes said, that an ex means someone who has been something and a "spert" or spurt is a drip under pressure so an "expert" can sometimes be a "has been drip under pressure". and i also recognize that this applies to any, even limitted, "expertise" that i may have. And i recognize that academically there is disagreement and controversy on this. So please, don't take what i am saying here as conclusive - study it for yourself and, with or without pro. help- come to your own decisions, by all means. Most of what i am saying here is based on my own experiences and a little knowledge of the field - and it is correctly said that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. In other words, i respect others opinions and hope that if others disagree that W/we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. (GRIN - but true) i know this is lengthy and somewhat academic, but someone DID ask and with me it's always a case of be careful what you ask for, you might get it and at length (LOL!) j/L Papa's owned always: still proudly wearing His Collar and Ring, rest in peace Beloved Master/Husband! "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose" Janis Joplin 12 Jul 08, 6:17 AM bladeslave US(CA), 8 mths Y! Thank you very much for your insights, 662-935-655! No doubt this is a severely dangerous area, and I agree with you that if such a thing were even to be attempted it would have to be between very educated, stable people not likely to injure one or the other. In practice, personally, this is not something I am interested in attempting, but I find the idea of the base and fundamental idea of it all fascinating, as I do most other things in the psychology department. I understand that actions (abuse, car accident, the other things you mentioned) can most certainly completely change a persons personality. But I wonder, does it simply bring out other, perhaps less desirable aspects of their personality, or does it form new bridges, so to speak? This whole thing really is a very controversial, and as I said, I'm not interested in participating in any such thing, and I know that there will be no conclusive answer for a very long time - if at all - because the mind is still so (mis? not?) understood. But, I find theory and other opinions on such things fascinating. For example, your response brought to my consideration points and aspects I had not previously considered in this context, and I definitely have some new things to mentally chew on in regards of it, I thank you again! 28 Jul 08, 11:27 AM Viceand_Vertu CH, 6 mths From my experience, step by step, we move on, we reconstruct as we discover and progress together.. All the pieces of the puzzle are always there, but assembled differently... It is more the perception of ourselves that is changing. Barriers are falling a part. Harmony is growing.