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	SD! : Web boards : Discipline : "Using the same actions for correction & kink?" 1 2 3 4 5 Using the same actions for correction & kink? (45) Mon 15 Sep 08, 7:44 PM Mistress_Tiara UK, 23 mths  I've noticed a truism developing on the board lately which I would like to examine. Many people here report that in their relationships, the same practices are never used for 'kink' as are used for correction. While I understand the principle behind this, I wonder if/ why such rigid bounds are really necessary? Please understand that I realise everyone is different and that as such different individuals will have different reactions to any stimulus, so I am in no way criticising those who do adopt this approach, I simply want to examine it. This distinction is not something that exists in our relationship and this causes no issues for us. I therefore am interested as to why this difference exists – is it something quantifiable or a random variable? I am a harsh Sadist. I treat My boy very hard and regularly inflict a lot of pain upon him. his masochistic tendencies are no where near as extreme as My Sadistic ones and so he is frequently pushed far far beyond the pain level he would choose if he had a choice. The same principle applies to My use of humiliation and sexual use; My boy is often used in ways he finds really unpleasant and exceptionally humiliating. To clarify, I do all of these things regularly, as training or just because I want to, they do not have to be for punishment or any corrective purpose. I do however use similar practices as correction or punishment, and this is where I seem to differ from many others here. My first thought is to wonder if maybe this is a matter of degree. Is it that some Owners are kinder to their slaves than I am and only make them really suffer; be it pain, shame or anything else; if it is punishment? Does 'kink' to you mean mutually enjoyable 'play' rather than acts the Owner enjoys but the slave genuinely does not? Even if this is the case I think severity is still relevant. If for example, you have a slave who gets erotic pleasure out of their bottom being caned once it has been warmed up first, and is administered to their pain limits, told they're good if they take it nicely etc, the cane can still be used for punishment if applied hard, fast, with no kindness or dignity and the slave is made aware that they are being treated this way as punishment. The implement may be the same but the effect and experience will be entirely different. To My thinking the fact the cane was the tool used in both cases would not make the act the same, and the resulting feelings for the slave would also be different. The principle works for humiliation too. Imagine your slave is humiliated by an activity but you do it anyway just because you want to. They may not enjoy the activity but know they are pleasing you, and derive pleasure from that. They may also like any praise afterwards. They may even get fetishistic pleasure from the act. If though they are told they will be made to perform the same action because you are displeased with them and it is punishment, and they are reminded of this during the action, the act is inflicted on them in the most humiliating way possible, and they are given no praise afterwards then the result will be different surely? This is what I've observed anyway. My boy agrees on this point. We have never had an occasion when there has been any confusion over what he is given correctively and what he is given just because it's what I decide. There is always full clarity. I very rarely need to correct or punish My slave. He is well behaved and obedient and works hard to please Me. He does not find being a slave easy (he does not profess to have 'slave heart' for example and never imagined he would lead the life he now does) so I do not think his obedience comes especially naturally to him. He is a good slave simply because he is devoted, and has chosen to be so and works hard at it. I wonder why then he is able to fully differentiate between correction, things I do to indulge My kinks and the occasions when we engage in mutually enjoyable 'play', when other slaves who may come more 'naturally' to slavery do not differentiate so readily? Is it genuinely confusing to other slaves or is it their Owners who worry the distinction won't be made? I look forward to your responses on this. I think this topic is really interesting and will enjoy hearing how others see it. *~*Mistress Tiara*~* Edited Mon 15 Sep 08, 8:02 PM by Mistress_Tiara 15 Sep 08, 7:52 PM moncherie US(CA), 4 mths  Whenever i am to be puished i am told so. When Master simply grabs me by the hair or grabs a nipple ring and twists until i cry he will tell me i am simply being controlled. During these times activities are sometimes the same but i am always told the difference. However there are times during punishment when Master takes it to a higher level to leave no doubt in my mind that i have been punished. Edited 15 Sep 08, 7:54 PM by moncherie 15 Sep 08, 9:11 PM little_linnet US, 3 yrs  Mistress_Tiara wrote: If though they are told they will be made to perform the same action because you are displeased with them and it is punishment, and they are reminded of this during the action, the act is inflicted on them in the most humiliating way possible, and they are given no praise afterwards then the result will be different surely? That's been my experience too. One time, years ago, I was flogged exceptionally hard as a punishment (I didn't tell the truth about taking my medication that day). I remember the pain being hellish but the worst part was that there wasn't any joy to it. It wasn't sexually charged and he wasn't enjoying it and that turned it all around and made it horrible. Another time I've had my rear smacked, just one smack with his hand, and another time I was strung up in a doorway and left until he felt like letting me down; both of these things regularly happen because he feels like it, and it was knowing that he was unhappy with me that made them punishment. I really think the "one activity for punishment and the other for play" delineation comes from a mindset that equates power exchange with particular activities and not an enduring state of mind. I think that anyone who's experienced the profound dependency and connection growing out of actual M/s or power exchange grasps that it makes the dominant's displeasure the most genuinely bad punishment there is. (Of course there is also a type of submissive quick to shout "My master's disappointment is the worst punishment there is!" but cynical me suspects that in these cases, what it really means is that the submissive wishes to avoid any further punishment they don't feel would be arousing. Usually it's the same type that's quick to shout "My master would never make me do anything I *really* don't want to do because he wants me to trust him" or some such thing.) Krista The thing you have to remember about girls is that the hyperfluid bearings under the camshafts can be miscalibrated along either axis, so regular maintenance is required to keep resonance in the titanium casing from causing abrasions against the primary sprocket joists. 15 Sep 08, 9:41 PM jakesemma US(WA), 14 mths  I get high off the play. I can't separate in my mind from good and bad. I notice if he tries to use the same physical stuff as play, I act out more to get punished subconsciously because I like the play. I like the high I get, and I like being tortured physically. for us, it is counter productive. I know many who say its the mindset, and that's cool, but once I start getting "loopy" from the pain, the line no longer is there and I don't care why I'm being hurt, I just know I like the high... which would reinforce bad things if he does it as a punishment to bad behavior. I should add that play is never sexually charged to begin with for me usually. He has only recently been mixing pain and sex with me.. mostly because he likes how I wiggle and move when I am being hurt and that arouses him. To me, I don't need it sexually charged, and prefer for it not to be. so if its not mixed with sex, it doesn't make it "bad" for me. mixing it with sex would probably (and does) fuck with my head more. Edited 15 Sep 08, 9:43 PM by jakesemma 16 Sep 08, 5:38 AM little_linnet US, 3 yrs  How does he punish you, then? (If you don't mind my asking.) Krista The thing you have to remember about girls is that the hyperfluid bearings under the camshafts can be miscalibrated along either axis, so regular maintanence is required to keep resonance in the titanium casing from causing abrasions against the primary sprocket joists. 16 Sep 08, 6:16 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 3 yrs  little_linnet wrote: (Of course there is also a type of submissive quick to shout "My master's disappointment is the worst punishment there is!" but cynical me suspects that in these cases, what it really means is that the submissive wishes to avoid any further punishment they don't feel would be arousing. Usually it's the same type that's quick to shout "My master would never make me do anything I *really* don't want to do because he wants me to trust him" or some such thing.) (shrug) People's relationships are all different, but disappointment being worse than anything is quite true for Joshua, because he's such a perfectionist. I've kidded about having the "self-flogging" slave. He really does get genuinely upset when I am not happy with him, and if I'm angry with him he wilts into a pile, and then will half kill himself trying to do whatever it was that he failed at. I don't punish him physically, because I tried that and it was bad for him psychologically. He got screwed up and began to automatically flinch when I'd touch him. Putting pain on top of guilt would sometimes send him into a spiral of self-loathing. I found that it was more effective, for him anyway, to work with a lot of positive reinforcement when he has trouble with something. ("You can do this," with eye contact.) If I'm on my game and everything is working well, I can get him there with my own will power. If not, I drop back, refigure, try something else or wait for the right moment to come. I'm very results-oriented, and I use whatever works best for that sub to get them to do what I want as often as possible while exerting myself the least. The worst punishment I've ever given Joshua is banishment to the treehouse until I felt like dealing with him again. That worked well, but the reason that it worked well was because I'd done a whole lot of work on him beforehand to make that seem like the worst possible thing. (I just realized that all this may sound chilling to some people. It's not meant to be. I just do a lot of conditioning on Joshua to help him be what I want, that's all. He is happy to go along with this.) To respond to the OP's question: I have used punishment with a sub before, but I ended up splitting the play activities entirely from the punishment activities. I am a heavy sadist, and hurting someone who is my submissive is always going to be highly sexual and enjoyable for me. I've heard a lot of masters talk about how the master is not supposed to be getting off on the slave's punishment. Well, that just wasn't possible for me, and that sub found it unnerving and upsetting for me to be punishing them and getting off on it, so punishment became non-pain activities, like nasty household chores, done out of my sight where I wouldn't be getting off on their discomfort. (Emotional sadism is fun too.) With the next sub, I decided to do things differently. So I have. Also, when I am really angry at someone, I don't want to be around them, and it takes me a long time to simmer off a grudge, so during that period no physical contact is best. It only takes me a short time to cool to the point where I can put my feelings aside enough to rationally and objectively discuss what went wrong, and try to come up with useful solutions. It can take me days to come to a point where I want to touch them again. Also, punishment doesn't give me any emotional closure at all. If someone has screwed up in a big way on me, I have no faith that whacking their ass or making them clean the catbox will make them change. I don't get closure until they've proven to me that they won't do it again, and that takes some time. These are my own issues, I know, and I am probably unique in having them, but they make the whole issue of physical punishment very ambivalent and difficult for me. So I am blessed to have a slave that doesn't need it. -Raven Kaldera -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 16 Sep 08, 9:28 AM Mistressofmypretty UK, 23 mths  Mistress_Tiara wrote: Even if this is the case I think severity is still relevant. If for example, you have a slave who gets erotic pleasure out of their bottom being caned once it has been warmed up first, and is administered to their pain limits, told they're good if they take it nicely etc, the cane can still be used for punishment if applied hard, fast, with no kindness or dignity and the slave is made aware that they are being treated this way as punishment. The implement may be the same but the effect and experience will be entirely different. To My thinking the fact the cane was the tool used in both cases would not make the act the same, and the resulting feelings for the slave would also be different. The principle works for humiliation too. Imagine your slave is humiliated by an activity but you do it anyway just because you want to. They may not enjoy the activity but know they are pleasing you, and derive pleasure from that. They may also like any praise afterwards. They may even get fetishistic pleasure from the act. If though they are told they will be made to perform the same action because you are displeased with them and it is punishment, and they are reminded of this during the action, the act is inflicted on them in the most humiliating way possible, and they are given no praise afterwards then the result will be different surely? This is what I've observed anyway. Hello This is a subject I've been pondering myself. I too, make no distinction between punishment or pleasure play and what it is I'm inflicting onto my pretty; the difference generally lies in what's gone before I administer the crop, cane, strap on or whatever... And he knows. If I'm angry or upset, then physial punishment will not happen for days - even longer - as I need to calm down and ensure that I punish in a responsible way and not just through being deeply angry. Of course, the pre-cursor to punishement is that in waiting to calm down, I go into silent mode and we both know (at least I think he does, I will check) that our next session will address any misdemeanors (sp?). On any other occasion, I will regularly use the same crop, cane, strap on etc with no other purpose than to arouse me, or bring me pleasure. Put simply (!), tools and techniques remain the same - its what has gone before that can make the difference, for us. ~I want those ruby slippers, and those diamond earrings~ 16 Sep 08, 9:31 AM 613-411-535 3 mths  little_linnet wrote: I really think the "one activity for punishment and the other for play" delineation comes from a mindset that equates power exchange with particular activities and not an enduring state of mind. I think that anyone who's experienced the profound dependency and connection growing out of actual M/s or power exchange grasps that it makes the dominant's displeasure the most genuinely bad punishment there is. Quite. although, for me, the worst punishment is simply being deliberately ignored 16 Sep 08, 9:35 AM Mistress_Tiara UK, 23 mths  Intresting feedback Raven, thankyou. ravenkaldera wrote: I am a heavy sadist, and hurting someone who is my submissive is always going to be highly sexual and enjoyable for me. I've heard a lot of masters talk about how the master is not supposed to be getting off on the slave's punishment. Well, that just wasn't possible for me, and that sub found it unnerving and upsetting for me to be punishing them and getting off on it Ok, we have a variable. I too am a heavy Sadist, and as such find inflicting pain as punishment erotic - probably more erotic than when I inflict pain routinely actually. My boy is not distressed by Me getting pleasure though. ravenkaldera wrote: Also, when I am really angry at someone, I don't want to be around them, and it takes me a long time to simmer off a grudge, so during that period no physical contact is best. It only takes me a short time to cool to the point where I can put my feelings aside enough to rationally and objectively discuss what went wrong, and try to come up with useful solutions. It can take me days to come to a point where I want to touch them again. That makes perfect sense, I can see that administering physical punishemnt during anger would be highly dubious, and quite scary for the submissive. We vary here as well. I almost never 'lose My temper' and even if I'm pissed off about something it doesn't affect Me like it seems to most people. I can still remain very rational and calm, and kind of separate My feelings about the issue that I'm upset about from the person that caused it. I realise this is odd. It is probably very relevant here though - and probably another variable I hadn't acknowledged, though I now realise I think My boy probably did. ravenkaldera wrote: Also, punishment doesn't give me any emotional closure at all. If someone has screwed up in a big way on me, I have no faith that whacking their ass or making them clean the catbox will make them change. I don't get closure until they've proven to me that they won't do it again, and that takes some time. I agree that just issuing some punishment will not solve any issues. The nature of My boy though makes the occasional administering of a punishment when he has really screwed up quite effective; he hates being punished because it's punishment as much as because of whatever I'm doing to him. Prior to being Mine he had been in a highly disciplined environment, but also managed to flout the rules & generally control people around him a lot. I think the act of 'being punished' resonates with him because it signals a shift in this for him, that he can't get away with crap anymore as he is Owned. he has always been very calm after I have punished him, and is very pragmatic about it. he also then alters the behaviour I wanted altered instantly, so I do get the desired result. *~*Mistress Tiara*~* 16 Sep 08, 9:47 AM Mistress_Tiara UK, 23 mths  Thanks Krista. Interesting. little_linnet wrote: I really think the "one activity for punishment and the other for play" delineation comes from a mindset that equates power exchange with particular activities and not an enduring state of mind. So specific acts have specific meanings to people? Rather than it all meaning, 'I own you, and today I will be doing X because of Y'? I see. little_linnet wrote: I think that anyone who's experienced the profound dependency and connection growing out of actual M/s or power exchange grasps that it makes the dominant's displeasure the most genuinely bad punishment there is. My boy agrees with this. he is deeply upset if he has displeased Me. he has deeply disliked the punishments I have given, but been most upset that he earned punishment in the first place. I have 'punished' him very infrequently, as he has not needed it, and usually his behaviour can be altered in other more co-operative ways. I wonder if slaves who are 'punished' regularly (especially if they have Owners who fetishize 'punishment' look for reasons to give it) would have this same response; I doubt that they would. *~*Mistress Tiara*~* 16 Sep 08, 9:50 AM Mistress_Tiara UK, 23 mths  moncherie wrote: During these times activities are sometimes the same but i am always told the difference. However there are times during punishment when Master takes it to a higher level to leave no doubt in my mind that i have been punished. So for you too increased severity, and the knowledge that you are being punished can change the same action to punishment. *~*Mistress Tiara*~* Next page