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	SD! : Web boards : Submission : "The Empowered Submissive?" 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 The Empowered Submissive? (68) Mon 22 Sep 08, 2:54 AM 163-605-552 AU, 2 mths  Hi, Obviously haven't been able to read all of the postings at this stage, however I have been plesantly surprised by the general tone of many of the things that I have read from other submissives. Given that I am a complete neophite here, I have being trying to gain an appreciation of what it means to be a sub, in order to gain a measure of self awareness. What a surprise to discover that many of the submissives here are still empowered, self aware, and thoughtful in their opinions. It appears you chose to place yourself at your partners feet, but in doing you still maintain an equality of spirit. I'm not sure if I can express it more clearly than that, or even if I have made a valid observation. One thing I am finding a question in myself at this point is that in accepting that sub part of myself, does this tend to manifest itself only in the sexual part of the relationship, or am I just pretending if it doesn't filter down to some sort of submission in every aspect of the partnership? " Your the bitch in bed, now give me the damn bank book and by the way columbus didn't discover america" I seem to be comfortable even captivated somewhat with the notion of submission in my sexual and emotional life, but when it comes to the everyday pragmatic issues of modern day life i'm not sure if I have it in me.I'm not sure this is wrong to admit, but while my Id may be submissive, my intellect seems to be unrepentantly rebellious. Hope this generates some responce. Coffee. 22 Sep 08, 5:33 AM little_linnet US, 3 yrs  You needn't and shouldn't submit any more than the degree that makes you a realized, fully living, happy person. It's perfectly fine to submit in some areas of life and maintain the ability to take the reins in others. It's all down to what you need. Edited to add: that rebellious intellect, though, is what even those of us who yearn and struggle to be owned have to wrestle with! Even if you decide that being submissive in all aspects of life is right for you, it won't come easily -- it's *hard* to let go of control or have it taken from you. Krista The thing you have to remember about girls is that the hyperfluid bearings under the camshafts can be miscalibrated along either axis, so regular maintanence is required to keep resonance in the titanium casing from causing abrasions against the primary sprocket joists. Edited 22 Sep 08, 5:35 AM by little_linnet 22 Sep 08, 1:10 PM 136-814-165 US(SC), 3 mths  I'm pretty new to the scene so the info I'm about to give you is from the experiences I have. I know that me and my Master consider ours a 24/7 D/s relationship. When it comes to bills however I still control all the banking stuff. When it comes to my kids he lets me handle it with His input of course. These are just some of the things I'm still in charge of. So instead of looking at it as you are being rebellious, mabey you could talk to your Master and see if He has a problem with you keeping control of some of the everyday stuff. Then its not rebellious but something He has either allowed you to do or something He has ordered you to do. I think that everyone has their own explanation for 24/7 D/s. You have to do what works in your life. Hope I helped some. 22 Sep 08, 1:44 PM property_of_MacCain US(PA), 9 mths  Anyone could own a bag of rocks. There isn't any fun in that. To own a thinking articulate slave/sub, though, must be much more fulfilling. i have had conversations with MacCain where He expressed that all of me was useful to Him. That includes my mind. Really,(this is my comparison not His) it would be like having a car with a great sound system and never listening to it. If it comes in the package and works, why not use it? MacCain may have the final say, but He listens to my ideas and concerns and weighs them accordingly. Also, as for daily things that i make decisions about, i see no harm in delegation. If a Master was to make every decision when would He sleep? It only makes sense to me that He would delegate tasks, such as child rearing and domestic things, so that He could make better use of His own time. i hope that makes sense. p ~~edited to add: The point of that ramble was to say, yes a slave/sub most certainly can maintain her/his mind. It can be quite useful to both parties involved. I breathe because He allows me to, indulging Him indulges me. Edited 22 Sep 08, 1:49 PM by property_of_MacCain 22 Sep 08, 4:39 PM Red_Spark UK, 23 mths  Agreeing with the other respondents here. If you are in, or developing towards, an M/s relationship, I think by definition your submission has to be more than 'just' sexual (not trying to put down those who submit 'only' sexually; no one way of doing things is better than another, it is about what works for the people involved). That doesn't mean though that it will be easy to submit in other areas of life and that's something that may [will probably! - if that's the road you and your Dom/Master want to go down] need to be worked on. Again that doesn't mean you need to 'act submissive' all the time - it's up to your Master to decide what he wants from you and if you're compatible to undertake the exploration together. Ultimately the things he leaves you to decide or be in charge of are his decision, what it comes down to is you *will* obey him when he demands it of you, even when it's difficult. Sometimes I think that the most difficult thing for a slave of independent nature is to acquiesce to his/her Mistress/Master's decision about something important but rather vanilla (e.g. how money will be spent, where to move house to, etc.) rather than 'taking' something challenging but more specifically D/s orientated, since the latter presents a tangible way of 'bettering' oneself as a slave and can be more easily glamourised in the mind. In vanilla situations and decisions it really brings it home that this is not playing, it is a way of life and you really have given up all rights to your own decisions even in the hardest situation, and have to trust your Mistress/Master to make the decision that's best for you [both]. 22 Sep 08, 9:23 PM anjuli UK, 16 mths  Krista hits the spot for me on this one and her reply put me in mind of Carolyn's essay on The Actualised Slave... http://www.enslavement.org.uk/cv-maslow ... in which she suggests that for those for whom enslavement is a positive life choice, Maslow's theory of self-actualisation (as the ultimate stratum of his heirarchy of needs) is met by the Master 'actualising' or facilitating the actualisation of the slave. I think you're seeing exactly what I did when I first came here, and I'm inordinately pleased about that. For me, it means that you're seeing people who demonstrate that M/s is the right and healthy choice for some. These people are indeed empowered and uplifted by their Masters, they are full, rounded, functioning human beings - they just choose to cede all control to another because it works and is good for them! Personally I suspect that any statement about my own status and feelings on the matter is probably entirely unnecessary to anyone who reads a couple of threads and the same goes for Krista and quite a few others. However it does not follow that submission and obedience are easy. In many areas it is anything but and our Masters no doubt make their own jobs more challenging by their determination to see us be all that we can be. But being the men they are, that is unlikely to change their aims or methods one iota: if they were after an easy life they'd not be even considering owning another and taking on the commitments and responsibilities that they do. anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 22 Sep 08, 9:49 PM SurrogateFamily 5 mths  These relationships are often described as "Power Exchange". If the submissive has no power to exchange, there is no relationship. I find minx characters extremely endearing; in hindsight, most of the submissives I've known have been very intelligent, and quicker to voice dissent than they are able to remember respectful silence! In my house, that is a cue for my own game: deliberately stating an incorrect 'fact' at some unexpected time to see if I get corrected gently or explosively! 23 Sep 08, 2:08 AM Blush4Him US, 7 mths  SurrogateFamily wrote: These relationships are often described as "Power Exchange". If the submissive has no power to exchange, there is no relationship. I find minx characters extremely endearing; in hindsight, most of the submissives I've known have been very intelligent, and quicker to voice dissent than they are able to remember respectful silence! In my house, that is a cue for my own game: deliberately stating an incorrect 'fact' at some unexpected time to see if I get corrected gently or explosively! HA! I love that game! Well, actually I don't. It's very hard to take a breathe and gently explain why the statement is incorrect. I have yet to give my consent to being slashed! 23 Sep 08, 2:35 AM 163-605-552 AU, 2 mths  I trust no one will see this as challanging, as I pose the question to myself as much as anyone else. By ceding my right to make decisions to another, is it a virtue or a vice within my character. Courage or cowardice? Some would say courage in that I am willing to place my trust upon another wholeheartedly, and that I have the strength to sacrafice a part of myself, to gain a greater whole. Cowardice others may say, that I have sacraficed my right for self determinism in life, by shifting all ultimate authority to another, out of fear or low self esteem. Ha Ha... Is such introspection, and questioning healthy for a sub, or potential sub in any case? Are Dom's really seeking an empty vessel to bend like a reed to their will? If so it doesn't seem to be reflected in some of the informed and intelligent responces of so many of the subs here. Oddly enough I haven't seen may males subs responding here in this manner. ( Perhaps I'm an oddity.) Yet something deep inside me still see's something positive and forfilling in the dynamic, of having a clarity of role within a relationship. Not so much about subjugation but differentation. My intellectual conflict is just a natural exploration between my own internal feelings, and what I percieve to be society's view of D/s relationships. Interesting nonetheless. Anjulie by the way when you referred to Maslow on self actualization. Self Actualization sits on top of layered pyramid of human needs. (I think the model is flawed, in that it fails to explain those that gain forefillment in life under the most adverse of condtions, without any relationship to the lower lvels of his pyramind of human needs, but that's an aside,.) Physiological , Safety , Love & Belonging, Esteem, and Self Actualization. In rising order. Maslow contended that in order to find forfillment in life that each lower need had to be satisfied as a foundation to rise to the higher level. This is more of an abstract question ,than a challange but it still perplex's me. In your words I sensed that self actualization was a motivation for the sub. I aggree and it seems a sincere endevour. However many of the lower rungs of the ladder are ceded to the DOM. If he/ she as the Dom fails to forfill the responcibilites on the lower levels does the bond between them fail? Alternatively if self actualization is a perogative of the sub, should they be responcilbe in themselves for these lower rungs to be self actualized? If so will it still be a sub/Dom relationship, because self determinism must by rights rest with the sub in this case? I apologize if I have over analyzed, an issue that is both more complex and more simple than my glib reply, but your responce and the responce of other here got my mind ticking over and I couldn't resist. Another reason why in some regards I'd make a very difficult sub to contend with. Fun writng this. Coffee. 23 Sep 08, 4:28 AM little_linnet US, 3 yrs  163-605-552 wrote: By ceding my right to make decisions to another, is it a virtue or a vice within my character. Courage or cowardice? It can only be courage to do what's right for you. Is such introspection, and questioning healthy for a sub, or potential sub in any case? Of course. Never believe everything you think. Oddly enough I haven't seen may males subs responding here in this manner. It's been my observation that heterosexual male-submissive relationships tend more towards fetishizing "lowly worm" roleplay. I have no idea why this is. Also, there are just more female submissives on this board. I think we only have 3 male subs who contribute regularly. something deep inside me still see's something positive and forfilling in the dynamic, of having a clarity of role within a relationship. Not so much about subjugation but differentation. Others may well disagree with me, as I think it's probably an issue of perception, but I think "differentiation not subjugation" would be a good descriptor for a D/s relationship in which each party retains responsibilities and rights. M/s, on the other hand, seems to me like it's inherently about subjugation. Anjulie by the way when you referred to Maslow on self actualization. Self Actualization sits on top of layered pyramid of human needs. ... many of the lower rungs of the ladder are ceded to the DOM. Have you read the article to which Anjuli referred? It addresses that exact issue. I can't remember whether she posted the link. http://www.enslavement.org.uk/cv-maslow If he/ she as the Dom fails to forfill the responcibilites on the lower levels does the bond between them fail? Yes. Once a mature enslavement has taken place, though. it may take a long lingering torturous time with much anguish on the slave's part before the bond fails enough for the submissive to be free. So, the slave is exquisitely vulnerable. It's a risk. Everything's a risk. Alternatively if self actualization is a perogative of the sub, should they be responcilbe in themselves for these lower rungs to be self actualized? If so will it still be a sub/Dom relationship, because self determinism must by rights rest with the sub in this case? I think this would be entirely possible in a D/s relationship where the submissive retains limits on their submission and the dominant's power. Another reason why in some regards I'd make a very difficult sub to contend with. I think a lot of dominants are analytical types who wouldn't have trouble at all with your dissections. Krista The thing you have to remember about girls is that the hyperfluid bearings under the camshafts can be miscalibrated along either axis, so regular maintanence is required to keep resonance in the titanium casing from causing abrasions against the primary sprocket joists. 23 Sep 08, 6:10 AM 163-605-552 AU, 2 mths  Krista, I am singularly impressed. A great responce and most enlightening. I'm really glad no one appeared to find my questioning confrontational. My only mild disappointment perhaps,is that as a male I am in minority here. However perhaps this has an upside, I get to see a fresh perpsective on the world in a new area of my life. Other website haven't even touched on these issues with the same clarity and honesty. Thanks. I also went back and read the article you listed. Cheers Coffee. Next page