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	SD! : Web boards : Submission : "The line between submission and degradation." The line between submission and degradation. (9) Wed 24 Sep 08, 4:57 AM 163-605-552 AU, 2 mths  Hi, I thought I'd start a new thread as the thought came to me. Half baked though it is. As I guess with many here I have cruised the web looking at a range of sites related to the BDSM scene, and D/s relationships. The seedier of them are titilating but to my mind they appear to be at odds with many of the atitudes and opinions the have been eloquently expressed on this forum. The only focus of the sites seems to be about degrading the sub. In as many ways as possible. Sexually it plays to my Id. (the thrill of the unkonw perhaps), but of itself hardly enriching in the long term. The images seemed to lack a context. The signifance and hopefully interplay of a D/s relationship. AGain perhaps thats my naive slant on it. Here almost without exception, in the subs forum, the relationship between s & D appears heartfelt and precious for both parties, that places the sexual interplay in context. This dicotomy is cause for some concern. If the porn sites reflect the Dom's only motivation, to seek satisfaction in the acting of sexually degrading their partner. Well... for my part. I'm not going to play that game with a stranger. Ever. In the end that I would probably hate who I was becoming in the process. Even in a committed relationship, which would be my preference, I would be hopeful that the dynamic of D / s would develop over time and would be accompanied by some sort of democratic open communication process. Silly? I guess I recognize on a primal level the desire of a D/s relationship, but I then try balance that against the notion that I don't want to be regarded and treated as someone's "bitch" as a consequence. Perhaps this is a confused rambling. But I guess the crux of my thought is this... Where do you draw the line between submission and degradation? In looking at a few profiles here I would be particularly intersted in hearing from those of you feel you manage to balance your feminist ideals against accepting your role as a sub. The two schools of thought seem at face value to be diomentrically opposed. Hope this ramble makes some sense. As ever just search for some personal insight. Coffee. PS. As a side bar as a result of the previous thread. Is the male sub a distinctly different person to the female sub? ( Genitalia aside You get the gist of my question) Along the same lines is the gay male sub different in expectation and outlook from the hetrosexual male? ( The "lowly worm" description didn't seem to match my mindset, but hell I hardly know myself in this area, so I try to keep and open mind. I like to think a healthy skepticism.) 24 Sep 08, 7:22 AM ravenkaldera US(MA), 3 yrs  You can't really compare BDSM porn and real life relationships. They're worlds apart. BDSM porn is about what makes people hot, and often what makes them hot that would only work in fantasy. Real life D/s often doesn't make very good porn, especially the day-to-day aspects. That's why you cannot base a full-time D/s relationship (much less a M/s one) on sexual feelings, period. Genitals have very short attention spans. For anything 24/7/365, you need psychological motivations and satisfactions far beyond sex for it to last past the first time that the sub has to change the catbox in a bad mood. As to feminism ... I consider myself a feminist of a sort, being that there are a lot of sorts, and some would say that I couldn't qualify as such due to testosterone levels (grin). However, given that, I believe that feminism revolves around that right of a woman - and, assumedly, a man as well - to choose their own life and everything in it rather than to be forced into any given role, lifestyle, or behavior by society based on their gender. Conscious, thoughtful D/s does that, no matter what end of the power dynamic one is on. It is a person choosing to be X or Y in relation to someone who is decent to them and respects their nature, whatever it is. There's a reason why feminism is about pro-*choice*. Being a submissive is simply another choice. Yes, there are some (M/f) people who like to use social roles to justify their dynamic. People do all sorts of fearful and short-sighted things. That doesn't destroy the experiences of all the other people doing this, nor does it change the fact that they are still making a choice to engage with this lifestyle. As to gender - that's a good question. Not being a sub, I can't come at this from the inside. However, there is a lot to be said for the clash of cultures - first, the gendered hetero culture that we all grow up in, and second, the gay subculture on top of that. I'd respond further to that, only it's late at night and I must sleep now before my brain fails entirely. Here are a couple of threads on subs and gender that you might find interesting: http://www.seekdiscipline.com/boards/service/177... http://www.seekdiscipline.com/boards/submission/... May say more tomorrow. We'll see. -Raven Kaldera, nodding off... -If you're in charge, it's all on your head. If it's not all on your head, then you're not really in charge. 24 Sep 08, 3:51 PM subbyjenny US(PA), 3 mths£ i have been involved in a D/s relationship that was very degrading, this is what my Dom at the time wanted. Now i am in an M/s relationship, where my Master indicates He really wants a passion slave. i really and truly believe that there are all different sorts of dynamics within this realm. There is no one "right" or "wrong" way to go about it. i find it very frustrating when S/some on here relay what is and isn't right within a M/s or D/s dynamic. It is an array of different things, when you put a muzzle on that, don't you have just what we are trying to get away from, sexual repression??? Anyways (after my rant!!!) i personally was unhappy within the cold confines of the D/s relationship. It was, as mentioned, very degrading and the Dom really liked to hold me out at arm's length. My current relationship relies heavily on reality and day-to-day situations, i just make sure that i am there for what my Master wants, and for me that works, it pleases me to please Him and i get love and trust, honesty and respect from Him. To others this may not be a good fit, so what works for you may not work for O/others, just don't settle for what you don't want. Make sure you and your Master/Mistress, DOM/Domme are on the same page and you will be happy and have what you want!!! 24 Sep 08, 5:22 PM anjuli UK, 16 mths  Hmmm... I think Raven is right, as usual. Mainstream porn doesn't look much like marriage or longterm committed relationships either so I'm not sure why we'd expect bdsm porn to resemble a D/s or M/s one. Porn is for titilation and entertainment, not for living, so I think if you stop for a second and think about it you'll realise it's just not going to reflect reality whatever 'flavour' it is, huh? As to the degredation matter. I think there's a fine line here. Some people enjoy and seek humiliation (on both sides of the dynamic) BUT over the long term of a committed D/s or M/s relationship, the investment of the M-type in the s-type's health and well-being and development tends to mean that the, again somewhat porn style, stereotypical, 'Lick my boots, worm!' thing is not going to be the be-all and end-all. (The discussion we're having on the empowered submissive is relevant here I feel.) Most of our M's tend to want to grow and develop us, see us be all that we can and not stifle our intellectual or emotional lives. They do after all want to own a human being not a worm. I also think you're right that there are gender differences. There seem to be more significant numbers of male subs seeking extremes of humiliation and degrading treatment as far as my own experience can inform me. BUT I have reservations as to whether this is really M/s or D/s as we live it. It seems to me that there are many who want the fantasy of serving a Domme (or perhaps the fantasy is more accurately a Dominatrix), sucking her heels and being her worm, but actually the relationship is built around delivering HIS fantasies and sexual kinks. And it seems that some of these find it humiliating in and of itself to be submissive to a woman. And that is in reality a million miles from D/s - nevermind M/s as we understand it here. By the way, I'm not implying that all F/m relationships are this way by any means or that females 'subs' are not just as capable of manipulating and controlling to get a dom to feed their fantasies rather than understanding what it's really about. Just an observation that I think I have seen evidence for. anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 24 Sep 08, 5:48 PM property_of_MacCain US(PA), 8 mths  Every D/s relationship is different. There is no set way it works. i am of the mind you're putting the cart before the bull in your apprehension. In my relationship with MacCain He does not take great joy in humiliating me. Please bear with my explanation. MacCain gets great joy out of striking me and leaving welts. i am NOT a pain slut. i bear His blows not because i enjoy the pain but because in my mind i am showing him devotion. If i can take the pain and still show Him adoration, there is nothing that He could do that would cause me to loose that adoration. i am only speculating, but it would seem to me that it would work the same way with the sub who endures humiliations. Every Dom has different tastes. i believe worrying about every "what if" at this stage would make a great thesis on the subject, but is not practical for real life. Building a successful D/s relationship is not unlike building a vanilla one. Certain personality traits are appealing to certain people... Regardless of sexual orientation, or BDSM tendencies. The only real difference is the size of the playing field. If you are uneasy of ANY thing, steer clear of the offending activity. That said, if it is titillating, the only way to see if it works for you is to give it a go. If it works out, great! If not it was a learning experience. It is perfectly OK to throw a few fish back. Definitely continue reading and asking questions if that helps you. But until you dive in the water, you'll never know if you can swim. Take care, p I breathe because He allows me to, indulging Him indulges me. 24 Sep 08, 7:28 PM Miss_Becky 3 mths  I think pornography in general is fairly degrading. Pornography rarely reflects real life, but that is the point... it's fantasy, and meant to make people aroused (sometimes the more "taboo" the imagery, the more aroused people can become, because it allows them to imagine without the accompanying feelings of guilt...). Part of the problem with D/s pornography is that people who are unaccustomed to the lifestyle can only take a limited amount of information out of these pornographic images - mainly wrong information - and come away with a lot of misconceptions... knowing nothing of the lifestyle (I, myself, was one of those people who viewed pictures, because I am curious by nature, but then decided that the things I saw and the stories I read just weren't true... that there had to be something more, hence my explorations and my willingness to participate in such a lifestyle now). As with everything, there is a "pop" version of D/s (the pictures, videos, etc.)... Not to put anyone down who looks at those images and uses them to become aroused, but my partner and I never view these sorts of things to get ideas or become inspired (instead, we would be more likely to look at "sexy" shoe websites that sell shoes, where all you see is a foot in an 8' stiletto... or websites that sell things like eternity bands or bondage gear... without the models/ actors). This isn't to say that some people, in real life, actually do mould to that slightly popular vision of D/s... and if so, so be it... I'm certainly not one to judge what another enjoys... but I suspect it's a smaller percentage of the D/s population than what others would have you believe (I'm only saying this based on the types of comments and stories I have read from people on this board). Porn is porn... of course it's going to portray someone (in the case of D/s it will portray the master) taking sexual enjoyment from another person (i.e. degrading actions against the submissive... think about "normal" porn... how often to do you see a female surrounded by four different men with their genitals in every orifice they can find on the female? Personally, I find that somewhat degrading... I'm speaking purely from a feminist point of view). Porn obviously can only portray one part of the D/s relationship... the sexual part... we're supposed to assume there is more to it than that... and there is... but obviously, porn-lookers don't really care whether or not the master in the picture loves his/ her submissive and whether or not they have a strong, meaningful dynamic! Submission doesn't have to be degrading... and often isn't... I don't degrade my submissive partner (unless he begs me to!! but then, it would depend on my mood!)... although, some submissives might enjoy it... and there's nothing wrong with that. As to the idea of a fundamental difference between male and female subs... I think the only difference is created by Vanilla society... the norms that we (or most of us) were brought up with... a man should be the controlling one by nature whereas the woman should be the submissive one by nature... and when we see a man who is submissive, it seems "wrong"... I personally feel that a submissive is a submissive, no matter their sex... they want to serve someone else... they need to serve someone else... whether that person is a male or female they are serving, I don't think that matters either... people just aren't used to seeing women in positions of power... but the more society develops, hopefully these old-fashioned mind-sets will change as well. The strongest and most effective force in guaranteeing the long-term maintenance of power is not violence in all the forms deployed by the dominant to control the dominated, but consent in all the forms in which the dominated acquiesce in their own domination. 15 Oct 08, 3:17 PM wayoflife UK, 6 yrs  Miss_Becky wrote: As to the idea of a fundamental difference between male and female subs... I think the only difference is created by Vanilla society... the norms that we (or most of us) were brought up with... a man should be the controlling one by nature whereas the woman should be the submissive one by nature... and when we see a man who is submissive, it seems "wrong"... I personally feel that a submissive is a submissive, no matter their sex... they want to serve someone else... they need to serve someone else... whether that person is a male or female they are serving, I don't think that matters either... people just aren't used to seeing women in positions of power... but the more society develops, hopefully these old-fashioned mind-sets will change as well. Well said. There is nothing wrong in having a desire to submit to the control of a female. Society's norm is being challenged and some people need to learn to wise up to female empowerment. It is happening like it or not. As for the rights and wrongs of submitting to a female, I find it natural, beautiful and rewarding. I want to serve that person .... my Mistress. In no way is that wrong, not when two people have their deepest needs met. To be in that position makes you very fortunate regardless of orientation. 15 Oct 08, 10:39 PM Wilhemina 44 days  163-605-552 wrote: Even in a committed relationship, which would be my preference, I would be hopeful that the dynamic of D / s would develop over time and would be accompanied by some sort of democratic open communication process. Silly? Where do you draw the line between submission and degradation? In looking at a few profiles here I would be particularly intersted in hearing from those of you feel you manage to balance your feminist ideals against accepting your role as a sub. The two schools of thought seem at face value to be diamentrically opposed. An interesting set of themes. For what it's worth, Sir has constantly recalculated our working dynamic (LDR) to try and reflect what we felt for each other. From seeing the relationships of others, it's pretty much evident that within D/s relationships, the act of balance is vital - it acts as a singular motif throughout play, and through life itself. Looking at it as a sub, the perspective is that of the balance being held by a Dom, and maintained by both (or more) partners. In terms of equality, pr0n doesn't show the more mundane acts of balance within a D/s lifestyle. Pr0n offers us fantasy, a form of idealized release based only partially in reality, in order to allow us an interesting fantasy. But, I agree with other posters here who've said it far better - pr0n cannot show 'real life' At best, it can reflect a fantasy element of our lives, and our relationships. As to those, relationships are structured beasts. D/s - submission in particular requires a certain understanding between both partners, and a voluntary suspension of specific sensibilities...(giving up x, y, and z because someone you adore says so). It also requires the ability to suspend willingly your current role, whether it's work-related or casual (Can you still be 'on duty' and in role at the same time?) At the same tme, much like a complex roleplay, both partners are aware that the 'nilla world still exists, and that we cannot maintain these personae forever - although we can continue being Sub at home, our lives may require us to have a considerably different role. A good basis for any relationship is that of open communication. Even in D/s, the balance cannot be maintained by the Dom/me alone. The sub has to be willing to play along, to explain and form the boundaries which their Master wants to push through. These are the kind of relationship dynamics which create a living and growing relationship. I could perhaps even try and argue for the logic that D/s is inherently feminist when it's Domme/sub, as it subverts the concept that there has to be a masculine power figure...(but I guess that's a can of worms, and would like any comments on that, just in case I've got it wrong). As for the process of open communication, without that, the balance of the relationship is lost. D/s, without structure, quickly becomes unmotivated roleplay. Submission (or the ideal of submission) is a cornerstone of the structure of D/s, and degradation is, in my terms, unwilling submission. In practice, it might just be considered a very dark D/s relationship; but such a relationship, based on SM rather than the open communication model, does not allow for growth (a degraded sub has no motivation to outline boundaries - theirs have all been eroded) and forms little positive behaviour for a long-term bond between Dom/me and sub. 16 Oct 08, 2:49 AM 862-203-011 AU, 21 mths  163-605-552 wrote: The line between submission and degradation. In looking at a few profiles here I would be particularly intersted in hearing from those of you feel you manage to balance your feminist ideals against accepting your role as a sub. The two schools of thought seem at face value to be diomentrically opposed. Coffee. Well to address the part of your post above. Maybe part of the problem is that people confuse feminism with how the various factions of it go about achieving their aims. If, at its core, feminism is about equal pay, equal opportunities, equal education and the right to participate equally in society then that includes the right to make decisions that are best for you as a person. For example not all women go to University because for some academic life is not what they want. This is completely different to not being able to attend because they are prevented by economic forces and/or they are female. One was brought up in staunchly feminist households; generations of us marched for equal rights, equal pay and equal opportunities to participate in the capitalist dream of home ownership, loans and credit. Growing up as a child one discovered that your husband could put your home on the market and not consult you (the wife) even if your name was on the deed. Nor as a woman could you get a loan. History lessons aside, it does give you insight as to why these issues were considered so important to us as women. Growing up the women in one's life were liberal feminists, they wanted to have the capacity to look after themselves financially. As a young adult one was firmly in the land of the separatist, radical feminist. One believed deeply that you could not have a relationship with a man that did not involve compromise and somewhere in that compromise the playing field was skewed in the favour of the man. (Need one really add that one was staunchly, politically lesbian as well, but that is a whole other story ) Through all of the problem was, as a person, politics aside, the whole power thing just made one miserable. And if Marx was right, then ultimately all things come down to power- including relationships. You find yourself, even in egalitarian, lesbian relationships, having to deal with power bases. It is not that one shirks power, as one has said before one will slip into a power chink that others do not even realize is there, it is just that the acquisition of power makes one miserable. So here one is. One may not work full time, but you can bet your arse that one believes she deserves equal pay for equal work. That means one is still a feminist. It just means one has traveled the gamit, from liberal to separatist to (slightly) Marxist. The thing is if feminism is all about having the freedom to make choices, then it has the freedom to allow you to make all sorts of choices- including who you give your power to. Master's piece 16 Oct 08, 3:54 PM Tanos UK, 10 yrs  Miss_Becky wrote: As to the idea of a fundamental difference between male and female subs... I think the only difference is created by Vanilla society... the norms that we (or most of us) were brought up with... a man should be the controlling one by nature whereas the woman should be the submissive one by nature... and when we see a man who is submissive, it seems "wrong"... I personally feel that a submissive is a submissive, no matter their sex... they want to serve someone else... they need to serve someone else... whether that person is a male or female they are serving, I don't think that matters either... people just aren't used to seeing women in positions of power... but the more society develops, hopefully these old-fashioned mind-sets will change as well. There is some difference in how men and women order themselves in the hierarchies that emerge in human societies and families: you only need to look at the complete lack of matriarchies and the prevalence of patriarchies (even now when patriarchy is stigmatised by the dominant, Western, pro-democratic lesser-of-all-evils culture) to see that. It would be surprising if these wider universals in human nature - which of course, may or may not be present in individual humans, though they usually are to some extent - weren't represented in D/s and BDSM in general. Saying individuals can (like Pinker) tell their genes to go jump in the lake, is perfectly compatible with the statement that most humans don't do that in practice, even humans who are self-aware enough to discover and develop an interest in BDSM. It seems to me that there are some quite significant differences in people's "philosophy of BDSM" despite the umbrella term. That for instance, a lot of guys in BDSM are motivated by strong fetishes rather than D/s feelings or desires to do SM. These are the kinds of men that female dominants like Bitchy Jones complain about (though not in those terms) for foisting unrealistic pornographic stereotypes onto female dominants. They're not in it for a D/s relationship: they just want to come with boots around. Since the way to identify a sexual fetish is: "Does it evaporate after you've come?" this has a big influence on what SM and D/s pornography looks like, since there are a lot more of them than us. Regards, Tanos www.tanos.org.uk Edited 16 Oct 08, 4:01 PM by Tanos