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	SD! : Web boards : IE Theory : "Slavery - liberation and leadership" 1 2 3 4 Slavery - liberation and leadership (36) Mon 6 Oct 08, 5:47 PM anjuli UK, 16 mths  Remoses thread on liberation got me thinking along a related but slightly tangential path and I thought I'd share and see if anyone else feels the same or can offer any thoughts. I agree that liberation comes thro the acknowledgement of self, desires and needs... and thro the open acceptance that we get from our Masters... the fact that the whole is known and still loved is hugely empowering I feel and at the bedrock of the stability an M/s relationship can offer a submissive. But, when R started to talk of leadership - there are leaders in the world and followers - I ended up departing with his view. I think submissives can be extremely effective leaders. We're not all looking for a leader who can help us by directing our lives on the micro-scale. What I mean is that he spoke about needing control on the minor level - what to wear, and so on - and that doesn't ring true for me. The control I seek is much more fundamental, less tangible, really... and perhaps that's where I'm thinking that there may be some who are leaders, who are capable of directing and enthusing and showing others the way... but who still crave control at some deeper level in their lives. I'm somewhere in between. I am most certainly not a good little follower. I have owned and run businesses, I don't take micro-management (in work) at all well, and like the responsibility and reward that has given me in the past. I have the misfortune to actually know that in an emergency situation I'm one of the one who ends up in the middle of the carnage so I'm no wall-flower when the chips are down either. I'm sorry it doesn't sound terribly humble but it's a fact. <laughs> So my point is, that nevertheless, I have a deep need for my Master in my life, for his control, his direction. I am better, more confident, less stressed, more focussed with his guidance. So how on earth do these two sit side by side? I think the answer is that nature and personality are separate. I think the answer is that I have the right Master for me. I think he'd probably tell you that a follower would be a damn sight easier to dominate! <grins> Does this make sense to anyone else? Any other insights? And hello and welcome back everyone! And cheers Tanos... you had us worried for a bit and I bet you've been busting a gut with a splatted server. We are, as ever, grateful that you continue to support and provide this place for us. You're a star! anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 6 Oct 08, 6:38 PM 691-475-658 UK, 5 mths  Hi Anjuli This makes perfect sense to me... to the point of it's almost like reading my story. Away from my M/s side I own and run businesses, before that I used to head up departments and so on... I am a bit of a control freak in a lot of ways, people tend to come to me to sort problems because I nearly always seem to know how to... and most people who know me outside think I'm one of those super women. I don't suffer fools gladly, but I do have oodles of patience if someone needs help... and I can't stand being micro-managed in a work environment... especially if I think the person is wrong. And I relate to your wallflower comment too But I don't think not talking about it is being humble... it's just knowing your limitations and strengths... and if both are high surely it's a fact not a boast? If there's something I don't know or can't do I'm not afraid to ask questions. M sometimes says it's hard to see why I'm a sub/slave ... or looking in no-one would believe I was... I'm the most dominant slave he's ever met I think that's because I tend to know my own mind and know what I want... which does kind of contradict how an s type is expected/assumed to be. I do need this at the core of me... it's the happiest I've ever been and in my life before him I was the main breadwinner and head of the house. I do wonder if strong people need the release of submission? To be on control all the time is hard work and being able to submit is a huge release. Not sure if I'm wording this properly though... someone else may do a better job of it The situation I'm in now - I still run businesses which M loves - he likes that side of me because likes to see me succeed. When I succeed so does he. The downer is I'm on the verge of having to register disabled and as much as I'm still doing the running M is my grounding force... without him to intervene I'd work all the hours god sent, and probably break myself completely. He reigns me in... and when the bit of me that's vulnerable comes to the surface he knows what to do with that to help me stay strong. It's not that he's the force behind my leadership - he complements it... it's the 'me' he nurtures if that makes sense? I agree liberation very much is acknowledgement of self and acceptance for what and who we are. So yes.. in my world leadership and submission sit side by side quite happily and again I think that's because we are the perfect 'fit'. I think that's what I meant to say... I've read it a couple of times and it makes sense to me... but not sure it will come across the right way. How do other people see it? Lorii 7 Oct 08, 8:30 PM 662-935-655 US, 2 yrs  i think that while i was a slave actively to my late Master, i was more empowered and free with E/everyone else and in all my other business and personal relationships for the better - i had more self-esteem than ever before and even since. i stuck up for myself and for the Two of U/us in some cases where He wished me to do so. Being a slave for an Owner does not make me a doormat to A/anyone but Him and who He might command me to respect in that deep way of service. and i understand that there are slaves/subs of all genders that make excellent Managers, Lawyers, Doctors, etc - roles where one has to take command. As well as slaves/subs that are Alpha slaves/subs in poly households. i guarentee Y/you - all of Y/you - that if Y/you asked the customer service rep from Amazon i just spoke to an hour ago if i was in any way less than demanding my full rights he'd laugh - while perhaps cringing a bit. i am very good at standing up for myself in any way i must and that's because Master trained me to be a strong woman - and with Him deceased, it's a darn good thing too. i don't like doing it - i hate doing it - i am so tired of doing it, but i can do it- stand up for myself with O/others besides my Master and those He's told me to be meek and humble and somewhat subservient with - which come to think of it, was nobody but Him. (GRIN) just my thoughts and i hope we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable if O/others don't see it or have not experienced this in quite the way i have. and i mean it - i'm sick and tired of having to fight to get what's due me, but i can do it and do it well when i have to. It's kind of like the theme song of a program here in the U.S - or what used to be the longer version of it's theme. i.e. "i don't need to fight to prove i'm right, i don't need to be forgiven" (original theme from CSI NY, CBS T.V., U.S.A.) i thank G. i was blessed with a Master that made me stronger and better every day i served Him and left me with what i need - not all that i might want - but all that i need and a little more, to live a content life. Of course it would be a hell of a lot bettter with Him. And i'm not over-joyed or what i'd call "happy". but i am content and grateful and able to get what i need and a little more, eventually - sometimes with a fight to get what i'm due under the law or what i've paid for already, etc. i don't know if it's like that for A/anyone else; however, i'm sure glad my time with my late Master/Husband left me a stronger, better, person than i was - to quote a song, He was definitely the wind beneath my wings. And He still is - and i want Y/you to know He was also my Hero, as that song also says. (Big Smile - and i hope and believe that wherever He is this is giving HIM a big smile too! ) Just some thoughts on how i've experienced being a slave - if it doesn't apply to Y/your Journey, that's okay with me too. it's cool/kewl! (Grin) But i am sure glad i'm not the whimpy vanilla girl i was when Master met and married me for that decade before the 4 1/2 year collaring until He died last fall. j/L Papa's owned always: still proudly wearing His Collar and Ring, rest in peace Beloved Master/Husband! "Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose" Janis Joplin 7 Oct 08, 10:13 PM Tanos UK, 10 yrs  anjuli wrote: The control I seek is much more fundamental, less tangible, really... and perhaps that's where I'm thinking that there may be some who are leaders, who are capable of directing and enthusing and showing others the way... but who still crave control at some deeper level in their lives. I tried to express another way of looking at some of these distinctions at the start of the year, in terms of Purpose and people's desire to have worthwhile purpose in their life. I used "leader" and "follower" as generalised versions of dominant and submissive that might apply to vanilla situations too. My sense with "leader" was as heads of household, heads of organisation etc, rather than the sense you're using that includes leaders on the ground. This blog post tried to explain what I mean: "What I've realised recently is that the desire for purpose can apply equally well to leaders and followers: leaders are people who want to choose their own worthwhile purpose; followers are people who want to choose a leader who will provide them with a worthwhile purpose." So that picture is entirely compatible with some slaves and submissives having delegated responsibilities and authority, and even being in charge of others, but it still identifies that extra something they get from being inside an owner or dominant's structure, and wider purpose. Regards, Tanos www.tanos.org.uk Edited 8 Oct 08, 10:32 AM by Tanos 8 Oct 08, 6:58 AM 688-764-833 US, 2 yrs  anjuli wrote: ...I'm somewhere in between. I am most certainly not a good little follower. I have owned and run businesses, I don't take micro-management (in work) at all well, and like the responsibility and reward that has given me in the past. I have the misfortune to actually know that in an emergency situation I'm one of the one who ends up in the middle of the carnage so I'm no wall-flower when the chips are down either. I'm sorry it doesn't sound terribly humble but it's a fact. <laughs> So my point is, that nevertheless, I have a deep need for my Master in my life, for his control, his direction. I am better, more confident, less stressed, more focussed with his guidance. So how on earth do these two sit side by side?.... Hi, anjuli. Your description (and Lorii's) fits me as well. I find that these facets of my personality are pretty harmonious because of the focus that my master provides: since he prioritizes things for me it takes the stress and second-guessing out of life (I'm a dweller and that will sidetrack me). It's also easier for me to finish something if it's for him in some way, shape or form (whether it benefits him directly or he thinks it will benefit me or he's simply told me to do it). And my accomplishments just seem to mean more when they are for him, not just for me. And I agree: being intelligent and capable does not preclude a deep need to serve someone who is worthy of devotion. As (perhaps) a not-very-good but simplistic example, look at nuns: some serve quietly, never setting foot outside of a convent and then there are those like Mother Theresa, who was certainly no wallflower . I think for me it's not so much about being led but being guided and being accountable to someone who I revere and love, if that makes any sense (am a little PMS-loopy at the moment). Cheers, Leesie 8 Oct 08, 1:56 PM 000-874-172 UK, 5 yrs  I can relate to a lot of what's being said here (from a male perspective though I guess, since I'm certainly not PMS-loopy as I type this ) People have often scoffed at me in a discussion when I've suggested to them that I've submissive at heart, and to the right person; they simply don't understand (and I suspect couldn't, being so squeakily 'nilla an' all), how someone who comes across as such a control freak, could even begin to be the polar opposite inside themselves. I 'am' in control of my life (that is ultimately controlled by Phay); what happens 'outside' of that is that I stand accused of being a controlling nutcase for the simple fact that a lot of people have a poor way, slower way, more dangerous way of doing things, that oddly if they'd've spent five minutes listening to me, they'd see sense; apparently, to them, that makes me a control freak, and I'm seen to be taking over a situation a lot of the time. OK, in an emergency, a loved one could be bleeding a whole lot, and I'll switch off to the fact of 'who they are', to get the job done, while everyone else is running around squawking because they have no clue what to do; people can make terrible mistakes when they lose control - give the wrong drugs to a patient, give the wrong details to a medic, etc - someone needs to be in control, don't they? But apparently (laughably) I'm still a control freak for having the nerve to stay in control of myself long enough to see things through to the end, and then discuss them after. I'm not one to suffer fools gladly either, which is why I don't do too well with humility in the sense that, as nice-a-guy as I'd like to think I am in the main, and as eloquent-a-tone as I try to maintain in any case, it just gets to the point where I find that the people I'm dealing with are simply that frickin' stupid, naive, dangerous, rude, braindead - or all of the aforementioned, that I pretty much have to take control anyway. In any case, I find that so long as I am submissive to Phay, and can maintain that and cede control to her, which gets easier in some respcts (because I find some things harder than others), I don't necessarily have much of a problem; I only serve her anyway. Lovingly Owned by ~Miss Phay~ 8 Oct 08, 1:58 PM anjuli UK, 16 mths  000-874-172 wrote: I can relate to a lot of what's being said here (from a male perspective though I guess, since I'm certainly not PMS-loopy as I type this ) Nah! We know! Just permanently loopy... naturally! <laughs and winks> anjuli ps. Sorry, couldn't resist... shall read the rest of your post now! <heads off chuckling> ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ 8 Oct 08, 3:16 PM 000-874-172 UK, 5 yrs  anjuli wrote: 000-874-172 wrote: I can relate to a lot of what's being said here (from a male perspective though I guess, since I'm certainly not PMS-loopy as I type this ) Nah! We know! Just permanently loopy... naturally! <laughs and winks> anjuli ps. Sorry, couldn't resist... shall read the rest of your post now! <heads off chuckling> *........breathes in to reply but decides not to and closes quote....* Me? Nuts? Nooooooooo.... Lovingly Owned by ~Miss Phay~ 8 Oct 08, 3:39 PM anjuli UK, 16 mths  000-874-172 wrote: anjuli wrote: 000-874-172 wrote: I can relate to a lot of what's being said here (from a male perspective though I guess, since I'm certainly not PMS-loopy as I type this ) Nah! We know! Just permanently loopy... naturally! <laughs and winks> anjuli ps. Sorry, couldn't resist... shall read the rest of your post now! <heads off chuckling> *........breathes in to reply but decides not to and closes quote....* Me? Nuts? Nooooooooo.... Gah! Get away... if I upset you with that gentle and friendly a kidding we need to get you new skin grafted! Seriously, you know nothing more was meant... or I bloomin' well hope you do! And the day you think otherwise or I really speak out of turn... you go ahead and give me a good roasting eh? It was honestly meant to be a little friendly fun so I'm sorry if it didn't feel that way. <winks and sends ya e-hugs and an apology if I chose a rotten moment or something> anjuli ETA that I thought about doing this in memo but decided it was best to resolve it here so people know there's nothing to it... but do memo if you want to s. ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Edited 8 Oct 08, 3:42 PM by anjuli 8 Oct 08, 4:29 PM Red_Spark UK, 23 mths  Absolutely, anjuli! Strangely, I actually typed a reply below my own reply on Remoses' thread playing 'devil's advocate' if you like *laughs* with extremely similar thoughts to yours - only then SD threw a hissy fit and I lost my post and couldn't be arsed to retype it. But, when R started to talk of leadership - there are leaders in the world and followers - I ended up departing with his view. I think submissives can be extremely effective leaders. We're not all looking for a leader who can help us by directing our lives on the micro-scale. What I mean is that he spoke about needing control on the minor level - what to wear, and so on - and that doesn't ring true for me. The control I seek is much more fundamental, less tangible, really... and perhaps that's where I'm thinking that there may be some who are leaders, who are capable of directing and enthusing and showing others the way... but who still crave control at some deeper level in their lives Most definitely. And I think, in fact hope, that there are a lot of dominants/owners/M-types who have little or no desire to micro-manage a sub/slave. Myself included. 8 Oct 08, 4:52 PM anjuli UK, 16 mths  Oh I'm so glad this is not generating a 'you're not submissive' type response! <laughs> Don't get me wrong, I'm quite sure J would be letting me know if he were unhappy but you do wonder about yourself and your responses to posts sometimes don't you? I think for me it's the deeper need for focus as someone has already said. It's the overall direction if you like... at least that's how it seems to me at the moment. I can lead, stand up and be counted, run a business, be the front man, sell, all that stuff, and relish it... but I still have this overwhelming desire for his control. And I think that he helps me do all that stuff better by removing control from me. Incidentally, I thought this was partly my own history and baggage that was causing this reaction but perhaps not. (I was the earner and was by default in charge previously too lorii.) And whilst I CAN do that, it imposes huge stress on me without support but then perhaps I am taking that too far - perhaps it would for anyone? Either way, his ultimate control of me takes away the stress, the worrying and fretting that I'm no longer allowed to do... and lorii and leesie, you hit that one on the head, I am just the same... and allows me to let rip and be myself, to do these things courageously if you like... knowing that when it comes down to it, the decisions are his, I am his and I am safe. That's enormously freeing for me and I'm beginning to see that I'm far from being alone in this. Sean raises an interesting additional question about control freakery. I also think that many of us who are submissive by nature ARE control freaks. Handing control to others relieves the stress that that need to impose control, or feeling OUT of control, puts on us. Does that sound right? Interesting. Thanks folks. anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Next page