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	SD! : Web boards : Submission : "Slave/ Submissive – Chattel , Child, Paradox ?" 1 2 Slave/ Submissive – Chattel , Child, Paradox ? (17) Thu 9 Oct 08, 2:58 AM 163-605-552 AU, 2 mths  Hi All, Thought I'd start a new thread stemming from the Empowered Submissive chat. As a newbie I thought I help myself dispel a few myths about term M/s. As to the previous discussion labels can be both powerful and misleading, despite our best efforts. Before I joined this discussion group my notion of the term master / slave was defined in part by 18th and 19th century notions of slavery. Slave as chattel. In the context of this community, BDSM as a whole I can't say, but this just isn't so. The parties here seem to enter into chosen roles by free will, as hopefully a mutually supportive life choice. Secondly the issue of “contract” either formal or implied between D and s appears to be a central issue. If a slave is a chattel, the contract isn't with them it's with the previous owner they are just merchandise in a transaction. Thirdly the relationship between D & s is influenced by viewpoints of character, respect, devotion in choosing to serve or control. No slave historically could walk away safely let alone reject someone on the notion that the master wasn't of good character. I know it doesn't look so good on the party invitations but what we have here isn't slavery, its more like benevolent dictatorship. “Yes benevolent dictator… No benevolent dictator” doesn't really have the same cache. I know that sounds facetious, but sometimes humour can be a healthy thing. It does nonetheless help me get a clearer understanding of D/s in this situation, and hence how that impacts on me. Notion 1. - Slave as chattel … BUSTED. Slave as Child. This one is still a bit tricky for me because it threatens me personally. Is the sub exhibiting weakness, too scared to face up to the everyday situations of the real world and make decisions for themselves? They will make those decisions but are inwardly consumed by feelings of self doubt, and a desire to submit to authority. They want to hid in a childlike state, and pass all control onto someone else. They think they are the “lowly worm”, worthy of punishment and subjugation and they act it out. Hmmm that sounds terrible as I write it. How could anyone think that of me. Yet people think just that of the sub. I suspect, and they'd be dead wrong. Not just for me but for a great deal of people I would suspect. It may seem a paradox but a great deal of the postings that I have seen from other subs here totally dispels this notion in my mind. I don't have a clear understanding what it may be for me to be a sub at this point… but a scared child given the examples here… I don't think so. I haven't read much from the “lowly worms” at this point, but my experience to date is sub you may be, but in the real world it would be hard to tell the difference between you and tigers I suspect. Placing yourself in the hands of another, providing them with a measure of control doesn't not automatically translate to being scared of the world, passive, or god forbid infantile. While being a sub may be a reflection of your id, it is not a full reflection of your character. I think T. E. Lawrence would be a good case in point. The evidence suggests that he was a sub., but nonetheless self aware, intelligent, articulate, and courageous. He may have run from the world at tims, but his actions also made him a world shaker. A claim could be made that he was introspective, even somewhat tortured, but even the most homophobic couldn't make a convincing argument that he was a quivering child. Notion 2. - Slave as Child Fearful of the thoughts of others but still…. BUSTED. A side question spurred by the T. E. Lawrence example. How does the D deal with the “gifted” s? Be assured I'm not putting myself in T.E. Lawrence shoes here, but nonetheless I would hate to have to sacrifice the talents I honed in life by putting myself in harms way with the wrong D. Anyway I digress. Lastly the Paradox if not chattel or child how can we more effectively define a sub, hopefully to better understand myself? Well it looks like I'm beginning to let go of some misconceptions slowly. I don't know who I am but I know chattel or child aren't going to cover it. The Newbie Coffee. 9 Oct 08, 3:07 AM 691-475-658 UK, 5 mths  163-605-552 wrote: Slave/ Submissive – Chattel , Child, Paradox ? I know it doesn't look so good on the party invitations but what we have here isn't slavery, its more like benevolent dictatorship. “Yes benevolent dictator… No benevolent dictator” doesn't really have the same cache. Hi Coffee That is the exact wording M uses to describe our homelife I haven't heard it said before outside these walls. Off to read the rest of your post properly Lorii 9 Oct 08, 4:59 AM violetgirl US(AZ), 23 mths  163-605-552 wrote: Is the sub exhibiting weakness, too scared to face up to the everyday situations of the real world and make decisions for themselves? They will make those decisions but are inwardly consumed by feelings of self doubt, and a desire to submit to authority. They want to hid in a childlike state, and pass all control onto someone else. They think they are the “lowly worm”, worthy of punishment and subjugation and they act it out. Hmmm that sounds terrible as I write it. How could anyone think that of me. Yet people think just that of the sub. I suspect, and they'd be dead wrong. Not just for me but for a great deal of people I would suspect. It may seem a paradox but a great deal of the postings that I have seen from other subs here totally dispels this notion in my mind. I don't have a clear understanding what it may be for me to be a sub at this point… but a scared child given the examples here… I don't think so. I haven't read much from the “lowly worms” at this point, but my experience to date is sub you may be, but in the real world it would be hard to tell the difference between you and tigers I suspect. Coffee, As others have said, I am greatly enjoying and benefitting from your explorations. I snipped these paragraphs because I want to plead with you to continue to expand your recognition of nuance, as you've been doing. For some of us it is just not as black and white as you lay out here. It is not child or adult; it isn't weak or competent; it isn't lowly worm or mighty tiger. I agree entirely that many submissives and slaves are highly functional people in all respects of the word. Some of them were absolutely that way prior to entering a relationship. Others grew into that competence within and because of their relationships. But some of us are, in fact, moderately broken in some of the ways you describe, fear within yourself, and (very politely) disparage here. I remember writing a post, hmm, maybe 18 months ago about being pretty damn competent at life management and not "needing" a Master to help me out with those things. Not much later I was so embarrassed by that post that I almost deleted it. Here's my current truth. When I am safely contained in a holding relationship, as I was at the time I wrote that post, my life management is exponentially more successful than otherwise. I am also bolder in my interactions with outside authority figures, more assertive on my own behalf, more likely to think ahead about my work in a practical way--I could go on and on. Conversely, when on my own or in a vanilla relationship, I struggle with many of these issues, sometimes to a detrimental level. I fail to pay my bills on time; I avoid social situations out of timidity; I lose track of my deadlines and fritter away my time. Am I hiding; am I afraid? Would I like to be rescued by an honorable, caring (and local) Dominant who would require me to pull my shit together? Well, you know, yes. I am afraid. I would like help. That said, I am and have done many other things. I have published twenty-six books, built a successful editorial career, started my own business, left a terrible marriage, learned how to care for my diabetes, survived suicidal ideation and depression--and again, I could go on and on. Each of the things in this list I managed to accomplish when I was not in a D/s relationship. I am quite sure that I could have done them better and less painfully under the control of the right person. But nevertheless, I did them. Nuance, see? I think what you may find as you continue to explore and learn about people here is that we can't be painted easily with any single brush. I have many questions about the ethics and psychology of D/s in my own life, but I'm not ashamed to be a broken person. We're all broken in some ways. Mine happen to be ones that D/s may be able to help. I think that is probably a good thing. violet It is a joy to be hidden but a disaster not to be found. --D.W. Winnicott 9 Oct 08, 7:21 AM little_linnet US, 3 yrs  Love your post, Violet, have a hearty "yeah that" for everything you wrote Krista Also, there's the Batman guide to retribution. Batman would have hung this guy from a building and dropped him repeatedly, catching him each time before he hit, just to drive the point home. So when it comes to vigilante justice, let the Batman be your guide. 9 Oct 08, 7:29 AM 315-076-759 UK, 6 mths  Hi Coffee Slave as chattel? Probably not. Nor slave as child. I can only speak from my own experience and find I am slave as willing servant. Willing also to be used as Lady Mistress deems appropriate. There are many on this site who of course see their slavery in very different ways. Perhaps there are as many different types of slave as there are slaves? It's an interesting point. To be a true slave is to be truly free Slave/Sklavos 9 Oct 08, 9:04 AM masterfiremaam US(AZ), 2 yrs  Slave as destiny, perhaps? Master Fire ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh Hai! Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 9 Oct 08, 11:59 AM property_of_MacCain US(PA), 9 mths  This line of thought makes me feel as though i'm in a fish bowl. i have to ask the OP, are you interested in this lifestyle because you are writing a thesis? For someone so obviously at odds with the notion of submission, it seems odd that yet again this line of questioning has come up. This lifestyle doesn't work for everybody. That is OK. i can't even begin to answer all these very deep thoughts, because everything that i am comes effortlessly without having to reason why. Frankly, if MacCain woke up today and said i was chattel... well guess what i'd be. i'd be the same thing i was the day before, but labeled chattel. You are what you are. i tend to feel like i'm reading notes from a therapist in these threads, with notations on the thought process of subject a, b, and c. Are we some test sample group? Are we people whom you assumed were all mentally sick, until you came and found out we were thinking human beings? Oddly, MacCain has never dehumanized me in a way that i felt like a lab rat. Yet i get this icky ache whenever i start reading these threads. i wish you well on your research... but i will not be an active participant going forward. p I breathe because He allows me to, indulging Him indulges me. 9 Oct 08, 12:30 PM jjsslave 13 mths  masterfiremaam wrote: Slave as destiny, perhaps? Master Fire I like how you put that. Thats how I see it fitting into my life. Yet at the same time Master had me look up the true meaning of slave before we moved to that level together. He wanted to make sure I knew and agreed with the dictionaly term first even though it was what is in my heart. I feel it is what I was born for and am grateful that I get to live it out with the Master i have. completely devoted to Master 9 Oct 08, 2:34 PM anjuli UK, 16 mths  Hi again Coffee... more interesting questions I see. I don't have a lot of time to write at this moment but I wondered if you'd read some of the stuff on Tanos's IE site? Try these for size... http://www.enslavement.org.uk/egostates http://www.enslavement.org.uk/roles for discussion on roles in M/s relationships. Then there's Carolyn's piece about 'actualisation' in M/s... and then below that is one that just caught my eye as I was seeking the above. http://www.enslavement.org.uk/cv-maslow http://www.enslavement.org.uk/malesub They may give you some additional lines of thought to work with. It's interesting that p feels uncomfortable somehow with your approach... perhaps because you seem to stand back from the analysis that you're doing? I have to be honest and say that I don't. Maybe I tend to do that a little too so it doesn't squick me out. If you were researching I don't think I'd withdraw from the conversation altho I'd prefer honesty on it of course. Sorry to lose p on this one either way. anjuli ~~~ “I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” - Anais Nin ~~~ Edited 9 Oct 08, 2:35 PM by anjuli 9 Oct 08, 4:05 PM Andrin DE, 3 mths  coffee wrote: .... I would hate to have to sacrifice the talents I honed in life by putting myself in harms way with the wrong D. A good D certainly would be interested in supporting your talents and making use of them to his benefits, but not suppress them. And he would work on improving those wanted features that you are less talented in. coffee wrote: Notion 2. - Slave as Child Fearful of the thoughts of others but still...BUSTED. Looking at the kids of my friends, watching how demanding and bossy they can be, I can't go with that in a general view. It certainly might be applicable to some subs, but I wouldn't see it in many. But there are many mothers in this forum, that much better than I could report their understanding of their offspring. anjuli wrote: It's interesting that p feels uncomfortable somehow with your approach... perhaps because you seem to stand back from the analysis that you're doing? I have to be honest and say that I don't. Maybe I tend to do that a little too so it doesn't squick me out. If you were researching I don't think I'd withdraw from the conversation altho I'd prefer honesty on it of course. Sorry to lose p on this one either way. Maybe I miss the finesse in the threads to see poMC concerns. To me all the contribution of coffee seemed to display deep interest. However, if you are really doing it as a research then please be honest and step forward. Regards Sir Andrin anjuli 9 Oct 08, 4:58 PM 000-874-172 UK, 5 yrs  little_linnet wrote: Love your post, Violet, have a hearty "yeah that" for everything you wrote Krista I second that - Fantastic post. property_of_MacCain wrote: You are what you are. Too true an' all. I am what I am for so many reasons; I 'know' I've been around the houses in getting where I am, but what I'm saying is simply that I am what I am for so many reasons; Trying not to be it is where the problem starts, which is why 'nilla was never a very good place for me to be - I've always known that. Coffee, If you consider for a second, the two labels you used (maybe wisely, maybe badly - who can tell, it's research, and you're entitled to it, and your own methods, after all) to be colours of paint, rather than labels (let's call them blue and yellow, rather than chattel and child), and that after further consideration, there are in fact more colours (labels to choose from in this lifestyle, and not just one to decide on, that can in fact be mixed together, you could well find something happens over the course of time; Take the aforementioned colours, and the brush that someone else mentioned; take the colours that you discover later along the way, and paint the picture that will finally be the answer to what you actually are; you probably never 'were' just one shade (one label) after all. Odd analogy, but true if you think about it. Funnily enough, I can't paint that well, but I can draw pretty good, and it took me a long time to figure out that I liked that better than painting, liked drawing in one style better than others, and drawing some things, a lot more than others in turn after that. Suffice to say it's all very well suggesting (not you, but in general), because someone has a fetish over something, they must like everything about it; you'd have to know me pretty well (and Phay does...), to know what mine are, but more to the point which parts I just find offensive to the point of plain ire. Sometimes, figuring out 'who or what you are' isn't quite as simple as looking at labels (on tins, for example), and deciding 'I'll have that' (akin to I'll be that, or I am that) - the contents could be entirely wrong; you just don't know until you look deeper - inside, but then, in thinking about, have you considered the possibility that whilst your posts and threads 'are' fascinating, perhaps you're over-analysing yourself, and might do well to allow what comes naturally? Lovingly Owned by ~Miss Phay~ Next page